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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Dec 20, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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Fatty said - The Dems love to walk all over the constitution in order to get us closer to socialism. If you'll read up thread, observe how they want to extrapolate "life" and "general welfare" to mean health care, I presented the words of the writers to dispute their socialist yearnings.
Yes, "general welfare" is obviously a contortion when you're trying to keep people from dying of infectious diseases and lack of basic care. Get back in your cave. It's absurd how wiretapping people's phones, torture and suspending habeus corpus are "important for the safety of our country" but making sure that working people can actually see a doctor is "trampling on the Constitution."
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 20, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
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Is there anything the Federal Government CAN'T do in the idea of "general welfare" ?
*General Welfare* could be used to justify the Patriot Act, for Christ sakes.
Besides, there's a difference between "promote" and "provide".
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apogee
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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"So SS was born back in the 30s (I think) and it worked reasonably well all these years. It took a while to get it right. It went through a variety of permutations until it arrive at what we know today."
Yep, and the idea that this is the first step towards true reform down the road is what I'm holding onto right now. It ain't ideal, but it might just get there eventually.
Chaz, given your strong opposition to this bill and the concept of healthcare reform in the form of anything created by the government, you will be sure not to take advantage of any of the benefits that might eventually be available to you, right? I mean, it would be downright hypocritical to be so opposed to this bill, or any kind of governmental system, and then participate in it, right?
Mind if we check back in with you in about 20 years when you have become old enough to have identified the need for health insurance, perhaps even had an illness or injury that required a claim, and see where your benefits came from?
STAY STRONG, Chaz- don't buy in to this Krap®. If you started saving 10 years ago, you should be able to pay out of pocket for most minor-moderate illnesses or injuries you might sustain. Just don't plan on doing anything else, like buy a house, put your kid through college, or buy a car, and for god's sake, don't get seriously ill (i.e. cancer) or really injured. That probably won't be an option for you...but at least you will have stood by your 'principles'. Good luck, pal.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Dec 20, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
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I treated a patient who was on life support and had been for weeks. The cause was a clot that had busted loose and showered his brainstem, causing irreversible damage. The reason for the clot was that he had a known coagulopathy but could no longer afford to take his medication, which cost a couple hundred dollars a month. The reason that he could no longer afford his medication was because he had lost his job due to the recent economic decline and no longer had health insurance, which had previously covered his medication. The reason he no longer had health insurance was because his insurance was tied to his job, which of course no longer had. Even if he HAD the money to afford new insurance, his coagulopathy would likely not have been covered because it was a "preexisting conidtion."
So now you have a man laying in a coma with little to no chance of recovery and the decision to pull the plug or not was left in the hands of his teenage children.
You tell me, which is cheaper for taxpayers and the system as a whole? A man who is guaranteed affordable insurance coverage to help pay for his $200/month medication, or 3 weeks of unreimbursed ICU care with life support and 2 fatherless children?
When you're done doing the math, tell me what the American thing to do should be.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 20, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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For God's sake, just read the testamonies above, even by conservatives like Lois.
The system is beyond broken. The folks standing in the way of reform are insurance companies and their patsies who have bought the propaganda. This can't go on.
You REALLY think your job can't be downsized. Lois just got it. I got downsized, even with great evaluations always, after 12 years with my company. No one is really safe, unless you have the government option already.
Let's pass a bill allowing folks to opt out of social security and medicare. Their patriotic duty. Pass it out at tea bag meetings
Peace
karl
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Dec 20, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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Chaz said - You're a fool if you buy that.
There's one born every day though.
Blind cynicism is not the same thing as intelligence.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
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"Insurance companies have gotten way out of hand and they have sowed the seeds to their own destruction. It is time to find a new model for health care delivery."
Word.
Capitalism relies upon competition to restrain the corporation's single minded pusuit of self interest.
Perhaps the government's failure to regulate plus the high degree of consolidation we have seen across the board the last ten or fifteen years has put us into a new regime. America's version of capitalism really seems to no longer work.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 20, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
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The Fight Over Fascist ObamaCare Is Only Just Beginning
Posted by Matthew Vadum on 12.20.09 @ 2:31PM
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), who may be unaware that he is currently enjoying his final term in the U.S. Senate, claims to have the 60 votes he needs to muscle ObamaCare through his chamber. God help us if he does.
The current iteration of ObamaCare is classic Mussolini-style Fascism (i.e. corporatism). It forces Americans at gunpoint to purchase health insurance, a requirement never before imposed on the American people. The big insurance companies and the federal government have combined to subject the public to this tyrannical mandate that Americans overwhelmingly oppose. This is the economic essence of Fascism.
Shame on them on all.
Nonetheless, William Kristol of the Weekly Standard offers some words of encouragement to the patriotic Americans who still believe in limited government.
Keep fighting on health care. Fight for the next few days in the Senate. Fight the conference report in January in the Senate and the House. Start trying to repeal the worst parts of the bill the moment it passes, if it does.
After all, never before has so unpopular a piece of major legislation been jammed through on a party-line vote. This week, Rasmussen showed 57% of voters nationwide saying that it would be better to pass no health care reform bill this year instead of passing the plan currently being considered by Congress, with only 34% favoring passing that bill. 54% of Americans now believe they will be worse off if reform passes, while just 25% believe they'll be better off. Making the 2010 elections a referendum on health care should work--if Republicans don't let up in the debate over the next year.
Indeed ObamaCare may be the Democrats' undoing. They are betting it all on their healthcare plan, which won't kick in for years to come. A public backlash before then could halt the program in its tracks and kill it, leading to a Bastille Day-like slaughter at the polls for the Democratic powers that be.
Of course, it would be better to abort this monstrosity while in the womb, but the beauty of politics is that the fight is never really over. There will be more battles to come.
As Kristol writes, "Fight on with respect to health care. Fight on other fronts. And recruit new fighters. In a word: Fight. "
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Dec 20, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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"a requirement never before imposed on the American people"....
really... does that mean I can get rid of my auto insurance.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Dec 20, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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It's sort of funny that one of the talking points behind the anti-healthcare reform campaign is that "they'll force us to buy insurance" when one of the BIGGEST cries I hear the of very same group is how people should be self-supporting, and paying their own way. Pissed that *they* should have to pay for someone without insurance to get help in an ER, ranting how dare that person not pay for themself(via insurance, of course) and NOW ranting that the person IS going to have to pay for themself(via insurance)...
And Lois mentioned that the insurance company mission has been maligned, that it was to provide care... I don't know how any insurance company can HONESTLY say they have been attempting to adhere to that section of their mission statement in the last 10 years. A look at Aetna's Mission(link: http://www.aetna.com/about/aetna/ms/); says they:
Our goals are:
* To give individuals and families affordable coverage choices, helpful service and information so they can make better-informed decisions to optimize their health and financial security.
* To respect and work effectively with doctors and hospitals by establishing efficient processes and providing prompt claims payments and useful information that helps them provide safe, cost-effective, high-quality health care.
* To provide employers information, advice, cost-effective benefits options and programs that improve the health and productivity of their employees, thus providing real value for their investment in employee benefits.
* To partner with brokers and consultants through responsive best-in-class service, timely information and attractive commissions so they may effectively advise employers on their employee benefits choices.
* To offer employees an engaging and diverse work environment that enables them to satisfy their professional ambitions, take pride in their contributions and share in Aetna's success.
* To be a responsible corporate citizen, improving the quality of life in communities where we live and work.
* To award shareholders a superior return on their investment in our company.
The last point, perhaps.... though I bet people haven't been seeing such great returns on their insurance stocks lately either.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 20, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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You don't need an auto to live.
You will now be required on penalty of fine and imprisonment to pay for the government granted privilege of being alive.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Dec 20, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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GUYS GUYS FASCIST OBAMACARE LOOK AT MY BUZZWORDS THAT I LIKE TO PRETEND ARE INTELLIGENT DISSENT BUT IN REALITY I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT FASCISM IS
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 20, 2009 - 10:44pm PT
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You should have paid attention in history class.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Dec 20, 2009 - 10:44pm PT
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TGT Blurfed - You don't need an auto to live.
You will now be required on penalty of fine and imprisonment to pay for the government granted privilege of being alive.
Man if only there were things you got in America just for being alive. Like emergency healthcare for instance. That the rest of us have to pay for.
Oh wait you do.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 20, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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Lois, Lois , Lois,
The insurance companies are now in bed with the government with the force of law behind their whims.
That's what this bill does.
No one get's to opt out.
Don't pay an insurance company?
Go directly to jail.
To poor?
Your options are exactly the same as now.
Medicaid.
And, 30 million are still not covered.
Sounds like a grand plan to me!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 20, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
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Lois,
To answer a couple of your questions, my occupation is Slum Lord. I cash checks and pray there are no vacancies in any of my joints ( at least not more than one a month! ) for a living.
I get my health insurance through Aetna. It's not even $200/ month, because I have a $5,000 deductable.
It's still an expense greater than what I pay for household utilities, or any other single insurance payment, so it's one of my bigger bills. But I'm not insuring my health so much as I'm insuring my empire.
The avocado farming thing is a new venture, more of a business-expense write-off than anything else right now. Last summer I had my first cash-crop; 345lbs of Lamb Haas. It took me a couple hours to *harvest*, and brought in exactly $345. Next year's Lamb Haas should be double or triple that. Before long, I should see more than that from each tree.
This year's Haas are looking even better, but so are everyone else's around here, so you'll see lower prices at the store! You should soon be seeing more avocados for less cash than any time in recent memory.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 20, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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Once the force of law and fascism is behind the insurance companies do you think they will become less rapacious?
Nelson and Landreu were bribed.
Do you think the insurance companies aren't expert at the same game?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 20, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
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I like to think I'm a hip landlord too.
All my joints have seen new paint and new carpet since my house has seen either.
Dogs, cats, ferretts, snakes, who the hell cares? I'm painting the place when they leave anyway ( and probably carpeting too ), so how can they hurt the place? Holes in the walls? Spackle-crap fills good sized ones, cheap and simple.
Late rent? No big deal. Just give me a story so I know you're thinking about it. I would rather work with a tenant than have a vacant joint. Much easier for everybody involved.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 20, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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I've seen the worst messes you can imagine, too, so nothing surprises me or even pisses me off any more.
One tenant thought it was a good idea to fill the Victorian bath-tub in his up-stairs apt with cat litter, and keep his window open so every cat in the neighborhood could help fill this giant cat-box. I don't think it was malicious, we were on good terms. Cat litter is heavy. You can't just fill a garbage can with it and carry it down the stairs, I had to make at least a dozen trips - two buckets at a time.
At another place, the guy living there blew his brains out with a .357. The coroner takes the body, but he doesn't take all of it. The rest was my responsibility. I kept the cleaning deposit on that one.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Dec 20, 2009 - 11:59pm PT
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TGT if you seriously think that this is the START of the government being "in bed" with insurance companies you are horribly naive. I think that is what is the most hilarious about the ranting politics of the right on this issue. They act as if gov't isn't already balls deep into healthcare, healthcare finance, medical regulation and the rest of it. The difference here is that the ordinary person might actually get something out of the relationship. Consider this a legislated reach around.
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