Runout Leads R or X Post up

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Joe

Social climber

Santa Cruz Mountains/Los Gatos

Dec 15, 2009 - 05:30pm PT

just discovered this thread. nice.

a bit thought provoking when I consider how many of the routes sited I've led up. I'm thinking might be time to learn how to play shuffleboard.

Didn't see Shake and Bake mentioned. ran up that again a week or so ago, and think it qualifies as R.

gonzo chemist

climber

the Twilight Zone of someone else's intentions

Dec 15, 2009 - 06:52pm PT

Does Phosphorescent Flow in The Needles (CA) warrant the 'R' rating? seemed kind of R-ish to me when I led it. Definitely have fond memories of that day as well...

-Nick

tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber

Leading Edge of North American Plate

Dec 15, 2009 - 06:58pm PT

Dana: I too like that line "I'm here to climb..." but I would add that surviving to climb another day depends on developing the experience to recognize when (~2% of the time?) it is better to back off.

midarockjock

climber

USA

Dec 15, 2009 - 07:10pm PT

To my knowledge, the distance of a potential fall is not the determiner of R or X. It is whether the hard parts of the route pose a risk of a long fall. Any attempt to quantify R or X ratings is like trying to do the same for difficulty ratings. "I know it when I see it" type of thing.

That's basically what I'm saying. I don't think The Dike Route is 5.9 R.
I read 40' for R somewhere. The 5.9 section is about 400' or little more
or less off the ground and a fall at/in the crux using the pro prior you
would be clear of obstacles, and it looked to be less than a 40' fall and,
a fairly safe fall.

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Dec 15, 2009 - 07:22pm PT

Does Phosphorescent Flow in The Needles (CA) warrant the 'R' rating? seemed kind of R-ish to me when I led it. Definitely have fond memories of that day as well...

That route has a history. The story goes something like this. The FA was done with three bolts. Mari and Mike put them in the perfect places, each bolt protected a harder move and the runout climbing in between was more moderate. I did it a number of times like that, usually as a warm up for more serious stuff.

Then a person came along who thought it was dangerous and irresposible, who chopped the original bolts and re set the climb with six bolts none where the first ones were. This caused some consternation among the regulars.

Eventually three regulars (climbers I know) went down and chopped three of the new bolts, restoring the count to the original three. The problem is that these three remaining bolts are not where the originals were, creating run out cruxes.

If this has been corrected recently I do not know about it. I was thinking about fixing this little mess myself, but how many holes and scars from repeated chopping can the route bear? Investigation is required.

climber

Dec 15, 2009 - 08:06pm PT

Then a person came along who thought it was dangerous and irresposible...

Is he here? Not the guy in the black hat - green shirt for sure...(me)

midarockjock

climber

USA

Dec 15, 2009 - 08:11pm PT

Fogarty,
I only know White Line Fever (Graham told me the name) but I only
remember 1 possible 5.10(c) move on that wall? From memory
of years past it's protected ok and not R however some of those other
lower rated routes there maybe deserving?

Fogarty

climber

BITD

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2009 - 09:31pm PT

I know it's the guy with the Beer bottle!

There are routes that I did with lots of friends, He put them in his guide books and put his name on The FFA party and never was there on some or he couldn't get off the ground on the rest.

Then when The Guide book came out I noticed that on most of the routes that I did he would RAP them and add bolts and never even climb them!
I asked him why some 20 years later and his response was, it was dangerous and you were to bold, people could get hurt or die, and I don't want routes like that in my books. My reply was I never asked you to put my routes in your books!

The climbing community is better off today because this guy Quite climbing to play tournament bridge.

AMEN.

rwedgee

Ice climber

canyon country,CA

Dec 15, 2009 - 09:57pm PT

midarockjock

climber

USA

Dec 15, 2009 - 10:12pm PT

Fogarty,
good for you I would have told him the same if he was gay.

I just sand bagged routes there from the red book in the 80's
which was lost years ago. I just remembered the 5.10(c) to
the left of 10K Gold and further left of Serpentine both
which I remember having further run out 5.9 than the Dike
Route or that 5.10(c). Is that suicide picture it(what he said)
and if so were bolts removed?

I still don't know what route the first picture is though it looks
somewhat familiar?

Fogarty

climber

BITD

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2009 - 10:31pm PT

The Photo is of Duck Soup.

As far as Adding bolts to established routs. some bolts were removed like stated above others are just to much work and now the guide books show the ajusted Vernon bolt topo! so now to remove them would maybe wrong for Joe climber with his guide book?

Revised post.

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Dec 15, 2009 - 11:29pm PT

I didn't want to get into calling out names which is why I didn't, but I think the historical facts are relevant.

The problem is that removing the 3/8 button heads set in a tight hole with a heavy hammer makes a real mess.

I don't know about Greg adding "hundreds" of bolts to established routes. I do know of a few.

Over and out,

Kris

Fogarty

climber

BITD

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2009 - 01:15am PT

Kris, your post fiered me up about somthing from the past that I have not thought about for a long time, I have revised my two post above.

Peace

Mike

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Dec 16, 2009 - 01:51am PT

Hey Mike,

No worries. Actions have consequences, and if a certain individual tarnished his reputation by his actions so be it. I believe it was the same Greg who added the chicken bolt on Esto Power up at Courtright, a super mega classic stance drilled route. Again, the 3/8 buttonhead looks like it will leave a mess if chopped, other wise I would have done it a while ago..

It a sorry state of affairs when someone comes in and says all the climbs should be equally accessible. For me one of the best things about climbing is to be able to imagine what it is like to do those great climbs which are completely out of my reach.

adam d

climber

closer to waves than rock

Dec 16, 2009 - 03:52am PT

not hard, but it's a fun one...sans bolts. Not a bad day at the office though.
Head for that OW up left dude.

Empress, Chapel Pond Slab, Adirondacks.

slabbo

Trad climber

fort garland, colo

Dec 16, 2009 - 10:07am PT

You sure they are 3/8" buttons ? Not 5/16" We had big problems with the 3/8 buttons WAY back in the '80's. You really had to flare the top of the hole and then the head would get all screwed up. Pulling them is tough as well because the button tends to come off. Chris Mac ????? BITD i always thought 5/16" were a decent compromise.

john

climber

Dec 16, 2009 - 12:29pm PT

Yes. 3/8"bh, the favorite choice of bolt of the person who wanted to be the Savior of Climbing...as he would have wanted it...so his work would be difficult to reverse.

guyman

Trad climber

Moorpark, CA.

Dec 16, 2009 - 12:58pm PT

if that 3/8 bh your looking at, is all bashed up on the head, it's most likly bad...........It's beat to sh#t and bottoming in the hole.

I was lowering Kris one day from a climb at the Church Dome. The climb is gently overhanging and as he was pulling himself back in to get his draw, the freaking head comes off the bolt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

True story....it was beat to shit!

look out.

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Dec 16, 2009 - 01:13pm PT

The one on Esto Power is a 3/8. Damn I hate those things.

I did this route at Church Dome once called The Heretic which was protected with those things. Fortunately it was fairly moderate, because as I rapped down cleaning I swung in and grabbed a draw and the head popped right off the bolt! It broke right at the end of the split section, about 1/2" in from the head.

If you don't make a nicely tapered hole, you have to hammer the crap out of the thing to place it, and the metal fatigues.

Yeah I've used a lot of 5/16 buttonheads, I like 'em. Still have to taper the mouth of the hole or the rock can shatter away as you drive in the bolt.

edit: Well there you have it. Corroboration from Guy while I was typing away..