Terrorism in the USA

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bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2009 - 04:33pm PT

Healy, f*#k you!!! Hehe...

I just hate people who intentionally kill innocents. Don't you?

mojede

Trad climber

Butte, America

Dec 28, 2009 - 04:38pm PT

How true, healje, how true...

Bluering, what if Superman had landed in Germany instead of the USA?

Or if Spartacus had a Piper Cub?

Or if....

Or if...

Your reality has been controlled by your ego, and your ego is weak, allowing fear and hate into your heart:-(

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Dec 28, 2009 - 04:42pm PT

Karl, that's rivaling much of blue's spew for innanity and blatant ridiculousness. Either that or you just lack a fundamental understanding of systems and complexity. And further, it smacks of a conspiratorial, big-brother 'they' which doesn't exist and is equally ridiculous - basic incompetence should never be given more creedence than it's due.

At least I'm referring to some evidence.. that the guy who was in charge of Visas in Saudi Arabia says they are told to deliberately look the other way when guys like the 9-11 hijackers want to visit.

and visa rules are usually VERY STRICTLY observed in US embassies all around the world. I've heard nightmare stories for professors denied entry for the more minor technicality.

Check out

http://www.nationalreview.com/mowbray/mowbray100902.asp

The cover story in National Review's October 28th issue (out Friday) details how at least 15 of the 19 September 11 hijackers should have been denied visas — an assessment based on expert analyses of 15 of the terrorists' visa-application forms, obtained exclusively by NR.

In the year after 9/11, the hand-wringing mostly centered on the FBI and CIA's failure to "connect the dots." But that would not have been a fatal blow if the "dots" had not been here in the first place. If the U.S. State Department had followed the law, at least 15 of the 19 "dots" should have been denied visas — and they likely wouldn't have been in the United States on September 11, 2001.

According to expert analyses of the visa-application forms of 15 of the 9/11 terrorists (the other four applications could not be obtained), all the applicants among the 15 reviewed should have been denied visas under then-existing law. Six separate experts who analyzed the simple, two-page forms came to the same conclusion: All of the visa applications they reviewed should have been denied on their face.

Even to the untrained eye, it is easy to see why many of the visas should have been denied. Consider, for example, the U.S. destinations most of them listed. Only one of the 15 provided an actual address — and that was only because his first application was refused — and the rest listed only general locations — including "California," "New York," "Hotel D.C.," and "Hotel." One terrorist amazingly listed his U.S. destination as simply "No." Even more amazingly, he got a visa.

The experts — who scrutinized the applications of 14 Saudis and one from the United Arab Emirates — include four former consular officers, a current consular officer stationed in Latin America, and a senior official at Consular Affairs (CA) — the division within the State Department that oversees consulates and visa issuance — who has extensive consular experience.

All six experts strongly agreed that even allowing for human error, no more than a handful of the visa applications should have managed to slip through the cracks. Making the visa lapses even more inexplicable, the State Department claims that at least 11 of the 15 were interviewed by consular officers. Nikolai Wenzel, one of the former consular officers who analyzed the forms, declares that State's issuance of the visas "amounts to criminal negligence."......

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2009 - 04:43pm PT

Your reality has been controlled by your ego, and your ego is weak, allowing fear and hate into your heart:-(

No. I look at realities in the world and take appropriate precaution. Aren't you the one with the head in the sand? What would it take for you to be wary of Islamic militants?

I don't really fear them myself, much like you. But to deny the reality is kinda naive. Dontcha think?

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2009 - 04:47pm PT

So Karl, are the terrorist threats fake or are they merely allowed to take place by our gov't to warrant a military-industrial complex?

Is obama involved? Or is he hidden from the 'agenda'?

What you propose isn't impossible, just doesn't add up to me....

mojede

Trad climber

Butte, America

Dec 28, 2009 - 04:52pm PT

No, not naive--"their" reality just exists outside of mine.

Denial, along with fear and hated is a weakness.

If I were to fear "them", such as you, then I would have to be afraid of EVERYTHING out of my reality and control--a thought process which is the root of man's demise. Paranoia from extraneous conditions is neither productive or spiritually motivated--rather self-destructive and evil.

Sorry, brother--I can't fight an enemy if one doesn't exist--and CREATING one is not in my nature.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Dec 28, 2009 - 04:55pm PT

Healy: http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2009/12/flight_253_passenger_says_at_l.html

Well, that's news to me and likely worse - because he had a valid passport and visa which is now probably in the hands of the Saudis who sent him. We have an administrative staff of 3200 at the TSA HQ - the Israelis would say to provide our own security at high-risk entry points abroad. The FAA could channel all Africa-originating individuals through specific EU airports and screen them before they board US-bound flights.

Karl, the reason why nothing much happened at our embassy in Nigeria is likely because their primary function is facilitate the smooth flow of oil out of the country and not civilian security which is probably given a low priority - until now.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2009 - 04:58pm PT

Sorry, brother--I can't fight an enemy if one doesn't exist--and CREATING one is not in my nature.

Fair enough, Mojede...

Healyje, I'm just giving you what I've heard...

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Dec 28, 2009 - 05:48pm PT

You got me bro. I just know the party line, via Bush or Obama is False False false.

NOt that the top guys are necessarily responsible. Who knows what parts of the government have their own agenda.

It's well after 9-11. Somebody goes and says their son is going to the US and is a terrorist and NOBODY even talks to him. BS!!!

HealyJ can say it because of the home country but the info was passed on. Somebody ignored it. Will they waterboard that guy or promote him!?

Peace

Karl

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2009 - 06:10pm PT

I know, Karl. It could happen the way you propose.

But isn't just as likley that due to political correctness, we weren't allowed to 'pull someone aside' and put them under a microscope? Maybe just a complete lack of intelligence sharing (that nevers happens)?

While I'd agree that covert operations are pretty well conducted and are especially efficient, it's also possible the inefficient gov't bureaucracy and web of paperwork failed...no?

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Dec 28, 2009 - 06:25pm PT

This had nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with an inability to prioritize intelligence. It was equally about the inadequate systems and protocols in the handoff between field offices, agency headquarters, and inter-agency coordination. 9/11 and Ft. Hood happened the exact same way in that regard. The Israelis never know whether to laugh or cry when they watch us attempt to do 'security' and 'terrorism'.

As a side note - two trillion spent in Afghanistan and Iraq did nothing whatsoever to alleviate or solve this sort 'terrorism' nor its roots in Saudi Arabia. It would have been far better spent on domestic infrastructure and security enhancements.

corniss chopper

Mountain climber

san jose, ca

Dec 28, 2009 - 06:34pm PT

Lets expand on the absurd conspiracy theorists idea and propose logically another absurdity: that all the criminals in the US are under the

control of our government and are only following orders to commit crimes so that the police, courts, and prisons have enough work.

healyje would have us believe people would never do bad things for their own personal reasons and so brands himself 'moron'.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Dec 28, 2009 - 06:45pm PT

Let's put it this way. How long do you think it would take IBM, Oracle, Exxon, or Shell to rectify a situation where high value leads and sales were being dropped between foreign sales offices and their HQ's?

426

climber

Buzzard Point, TN

Dec 28, 2009 - 07:38pm PT

Bluering: //"Healy, f*#k you!!! Hehe...

I just hate people who intentionally kill innocents. Don't you?"//

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=21440

Hate "yourself...US"

Or maybe the "ratio" is spot on for "make it up Johnny (on the spot)"

Or perhaps you'll rationalize with a little "it wasn't intentional"...

(just....

profitable...)

like i said upthread, "kids, dude...kids".

Paz

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Dec 28, 2009 - 10:19pm PT

If he had the visa, he had a passport - some conflicted reporting going on...

Evidence insufficient to revoke alleged bomber's visa: State
(AFP) – 2 hours ago

WASHINGTON —
The State Department said the father of 23-year-old Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab had gone to the US embassy in Abuja on November 19 to raise concerns about his son.

The embassy relayed those concerns the following day in a diplomatic cable to the State Department and the National Counterterrorism Center, which coordinates intelligence among various government agencies, said State Department spokesman Ian Kelly.

But Kelly told reporters, "The information in this ... cable was insufficient for this inter-agency review process to make a determination that this individual's visa should be revoked."

The cable did not say -- nor was it required to say -- that Abdulmutallab had received a two-year multiple-entry standard tourist visa from the US embassy in London on June 16, 2008, Kelly said.

Abdulmutallab was able to use the visa to board a Northwest Airlines flight from Amsterdam to Detroit with a one-way ticket and only carry-on luggage.

andy@climbingmoab

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Dec 30, 2009 - 12:23pm PT

I took that same flight earlier this year after a connection from Ghana. You cannot board without a passport and every passenger has a fairly detailed interview with a security person. My interview lasted longer than most since I was connecting from Africa. Not having a passport sounds like bullsh#t.

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Dec 30, 2009 - 01:51pm PT

I think we'd have a better chance of converting them to Christianity rather than Judiasm, at least at first.

Depending on who the new converts fall in with, they may get to do some really cool things, like drink wine in church or handle rattlesnakes while jabbering nonsense at the tops of their lungs.

sandstone conglomerate

climber

sharon conglomerate central

Dec 30, 2009 - 08:06pm PT

dick cheney flapping his war monger lips again...f*#k that dude. who's going to be the first to defend him and tell me he's an american hero, a defender of the constitution, an antagonizer of the liberal media who wrought the ruination of the greatest president ever, George Dubya Bush? Cheyney, too chickenshit to serve in vietnam but oh so brave enough to send others into war? calling all armchair warriors to defend this ass clown....