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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 21, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
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I'm sure the bowerbirds don't imagine that the Sistine Chapel is aesthetically equivalent to their bower, either...
yet we both occupy the Earth at the same time. Imagine that.
A claim for the intellectual and aesthetic perception of the Bowerbird as equal (superior?) to that of humanity's... really? Let your feathered friends do your taxes this year as part of a science project... plenty of interesting data there I'm sure.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 21, 2017 - 12:08pm PT
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...yet we both occupy the Earth at the same time. Imagine that.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 21, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
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If by this you mean humanity stands in relation to all other sentient beings on this planet, I don't disagree. All life deserves respect and empathy. But that shouldn't cause the dismissal of humanity's potential or dismissal of the remarkable, unique nature of the human mind and human consciousness. That we as part of the universe have the incredible ability to understand that universe, to know and realize what no other sentient creature on this planet can understand in the same way, makes us remarkable. The dismissal of that remarkable nature or the diminishment of its achievements is a product of romantic notions born as a result of a discredited theology in the 19th century. I'm not sure it should have a place in science.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Jan 21, 2017 - 03:05pm PT
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Does one's theory about "What is Mind" depend upon one's answer to the two biggies, the universal questions: to wit: a) the existence vel non of a human soul and; b) eternity?
If you believe there is no "eternal soul" then there is no "eternity" to worry about. (My stance).
If you believe there is an "eternal soul" then - BINGO you must worry about eternity (and you want the answers provided by Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc.).
(I am prepared to be dismissed as "light" for daring to so simply identify and putatively resolve the universal and eternal questions).
However, I would deeply value constructive and compassionate dialogue upon these lines of inquiry (or simply point out to me where this thread already circled this wagon).
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Meraki
Boulder climber
USA
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Jan 21, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
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By the way, I also think so.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jan 21, 2017 - 04:21pm PT
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That we .. have the incredible ability .. to know and realize what no other sentient creature on this planet can understand .. makes us remarkable.
What do you mean we? I'm the only one who can do that :-)
Humans (I mean I) rule! At least we believe we do.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 21, 2017 - 05:06pm PT
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At least we believe we do.
Yeah, I wonder why that is?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 21, 2017 - 05:15pm PT
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Yeah, I wonder why that is?
Hubris.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 21, 2017 - 05:25pm PT
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TWP: The soul according to many is perceived as a vaguely defined spiritual part of a human and is thought to endure throughout eternity. Eternity, on the other hand, may be considered a physical (and mathematical) concept associated with the measurement and extent of time. I have heard very little in this thread about a human mind extending temporally ad infinitum, although there have been brief discussions about its extent in the physical universe. I don't think a discussion of mind, a product of the physical brain, has much of a connection to a religious notion like soul, which is perceived to stand apart from the physical body.
But I could be wrong.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 21, 2017 - 05:53pm PT
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Hubris.
So it's hubris to recognize a human being has more intellectual ability, a higher IQ, than a bird or any other sentient creature on this planet? Is it hubris to realize the aesthetic capabilities of human beings are more refined and complex in comparison to other animals?
Romanticism has a tendency to subvert reason.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 21, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
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So it's hubris to recognize a human being has more intellectual ability, a higher IQ, than a bird or any other sentient creature on this planet?
No. That is hilarious anthropomorphism.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2017 - 09:16pm PT
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That is hilarious anthropomorphism
You really truly lack logic and good intelligence .....
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 21, 2017 - 09:25pm PT
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Murky waters, Duck. Paddle faster.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jan 22, 2017 - 07:04am PT
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MH2: Science is not a method for finding out what a thing is.
I’ll try to avoid asking what science is studying, then.
TWP: Does one's theory about "What is Mind" depend upon . . . ?
A few of us here would suggest that the gravamen of the discussion revolves around the difference between what is seen as theory and what is seen as What Is. As above, if you don’t know what things are, then any explanation will do.
As for eternity or soul or religion, these are the strange attractors that has you focused. They are all concepts. Just more theories. The results of imagination.
Let go of those for even a moment, and then see where are things at.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 22, 2017 - 09:44am PT
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You really truly lack logic and good intelligence .....
The truth.
But it doesn't stop me from seeing humor in handing a parakeet a pencil and an IQ test booklet.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2017 - 09:47am PT
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handing a parakeet a pencil and an IQ test booklet
That my friend is NOT how intelligence is ever measured (IQ test).
Only the clueless falsely believe they can measure true intelligence that way .....
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 22, 2017 - 09:55am PT
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Forget the old saying: Birds are pretty bright. They’re capable of navigating thousands of miles during biannual migrations, using tools to better access their food, and even counting from left to right. The basic definition of intelligence is the ability to solve novel problems, says Damian Scarf, a psychology professor at the University of Otago in New Zealand. And at least some birds have the knack—heck, crows’ reasoning skills might even be on par with those of a 7-year-old child.
Unlike kids, however, birds can’t be convinced to sit down and take IQ tests. So how do researchers suss out avian smarts? They have a battery of bird-specific tests that assess the baseline braininess of species as a whole, and show the range of avian intelligence between species and individuals (just like humans, some individual birds are brighter than others).
Yeah, ha, just like humans some are brighter than others.
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allapah
climber
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Jan 22, 2017 - 11:11am PT
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Saying it is "intuition" you might ask: what is intuition?
Correlate pre-climb intuitions with post-climb outcomes for a large set of climbers and climbs, and we would see a correlation that exceeds the statistical probability of getting the intuition right "just by accident." It would have to be set up in a quantifiable way: "we had a good feeling" "our feelings were neutral," "we felt we were gonna die," and then someone with a handle on how to compute all this nebulous data would have to come up with "expected probabilities" for an accurate prediction of the climbing outcome. "We succeeded", "it was routine," "we almost died." The data to verify intuition is already there embedded in climbing literature and Supertopo. Some statistician needs to come up with a framework to show the correlation.
Intuition and synchronicity increase in one's perception as the proximity of one's own personal Death Attractor decreases. (Like Don Juan looking over his left shoulder.)
Could something like this be a method to get past this goddamn "hard problem" that has stymied this thread for over 13,000 posts?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2017 - 11:50am PT
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Tendency and intuition exist because the soul is present within the body.
A crude example below:
The tendency of a machine (vehicle) is to go left or right.
One cannot say that the vehicle itself, as matter, turns right and left without the direction of a driver.
Even a computer ultimately needs a programmer and an operator to turn it on.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 22, 2017 - 03:07pm PT
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. . . because the soul is present within the body
But is it of the body?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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