Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2016 - 12:27pm PT
|
the real shift occurs when awareness itself is finally experienced as basic
This has been your theme over many pages of this thread, JL. I think what you are saying is valid, and that by meditating one gains a different perspective on awareness. The state that you attain, however, is wholly dependent upon neuron activity in the brain affected by your subconscious, embedded goal of reaching this point of perception. We have seen in recent posts how the mind attempts to interpret what we perceive in various ways and present pleasing results like a djinn out of the bottle, accommodating our wishes. I think that is marvelous and makes the mind seem so much more than the sum of its neurons. I wish you well in your meditative journeys.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
|
The map is not the territory. An apple is not an orange.
But if we reversed the names an orange could be an apple.
But we would still be saying, "An orange is not an apple."
Here is a story complementary to the one Dingus told us about seeing a house where there wasn't one:
This morning I went to the library to pick up a DVD I had placed a hold on. The library puts items on hold on a shelf where you can find them by your name on a paper printout.
I walked up to the shelf and reached out for AN CAIRNS, then noticed that the name was stuck inside a book, not on the outside of a DVD. I also noticed the DVD just to the left, also with AN CAIRNS. Okay, there were two of us. As is my won't, I took pictures of both items, then went to check out the DVD. As I got to the desk a librarian on the phone said something which caught my attention.
I checked out the DVD, walked to the grocery store, and then headed for the sauna.
On the way to the grocery store I realized I had forgotten what it was the librarian had said. At the time it had sounded significant: an unlikely coincidence, made more impressive by the coincidence which had preceded it.
I set myself to trying to remember what the librarian had said. I was pretty sure that it was one word, beginning with the letter 's' and having several syllables. Not a lot to go on, but the word should also have significance for me in connection to some recent experience. I was pretty sure of that.
I ran through a lot of words beginning with the letter 's', and other letters, having several syllables or not. Although some of the words I tested fit my conscious criteria, none of them felt right.
Somewhere between an hour and two after starting the search, the answer came. It was, "Golden Spruce." That is the title of a book written by the same author who wrote The Tiger, and who I saw giving a talk, thanks to my daughter, who is visiting us for Christmas.
The point I wish to make, here, is that the brain may be beguiled by pleasant suggestions, but can recognize fact in a forest of fancy, in addition to mistaking fancy for fact.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2016 - 02:41pm PT
|
I think that is marvelous and makes the mind seem so much more than the sum of its neurons.
Or of its bacteria.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151021135616.htm
Everyone must know by now that mitochondria were once independent bacteria confiscated and put to work in the slave galleys of our cells. They communicate with other organelles within the cell including most importantly the nucleus where chromatin is located.
As mitochondria they are already responsible for some of the amorphous chatter going on in our species most coveted possession, our brains.
The brain, like the heart, is very,very rich in mitochondria.
Now it could get easier to blame things we don't like about ourselves on the germs whispering in our ears.
Do we own our micro biome or does it own us?
Btw You recreational breath counters (like myself) might be interested in this piece:
https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2016/12/rhythm-of-breathing-affects-memory-and-fear/
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
|
Jgill: The state that you attain, however, is . . . .
A mere technical note:
If I understand what Largo is pointing to, it’s not a state that is unitary or singular. It’s all states. it’s just seeing them for what they are. What are they? We cannot say.
In my experiences, it’s the understanding just how far that stretches and reaches is the realization at-hand. There seems to be infinite mystery that one gets exposed to. Things don’t narrow down into an understanding. The understanding is ever-broadening and reaching. There is no singular understanding. That’s the seeming conundrum and paradox that one wrestles with.
EDIT: That is, if you care about such things, if those "issues" are what shows up in front of you. You know, none of us have hardly any say or control in what shows up in front of us. From my view, it seems pretty much as a done deal.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
|
You know, none of us have hardly any say or control in what shows up in front of us.
Like these poor guys, eh?
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2016 - 09:59pm PT
|
When I engaged in the Art of Dreaming over forty years ago the most important aspect of the practice was forming intent. You simply told yourself you would have an adventure, without any sort of detail. Then you didn't think of that as you entered the state. I suspect the same is true of Zen practices. You form a vague intent to have an experience, then let go of it and proceed. The mind, like a djinn, creates that which you desire.
None of which has anything to do with physical reality, but gives you an exciting new perspective. Don't read too much into it. Awareness without a object may seem profound, but like much in life it doesn't go anywhere. Saddle up and go climbing instead.
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 10:53am PT
|
Jgill: None of which has anything to do with physical reality, . . . .
This is the gravamen for you in all of this here on this thread, isn’t it? Largo, and others, have introduced a notion about what things are (empty), and you understand it to mean that things don’t exist. What you see is what you get, right? What is obvious to you (trees, atoms, people, etc.) is what there is. The names / labels and definitions may change, but there ARE substantive concrete things: that is, mainly what’s material . . . things, hard stuff, real objects that stick around (exist) no matter if you or another person is observing them or not. How can anyone deny the existence of things when we obviously live among, within, and on the outside of them?
The position seems to imply a number of assumptions, beliefs, and values.
1. The most important things in the universe are material. This is to say that material things are the gold standard of referent points.
2. Material things can be “known” without significant doubt.
3. Material things can be relied upon. They provide the ground underneath our feet, philosophically, physically, conceptually, psychologically, and sociologically.
4. We are little bitty things / objects / beings in a great expansive universe. This is not to say that we are nothing, but “infinitesimally insignificant” could well be argued.
5. Consciousness is an attribute of beings, one among many other attributes, and perhaps not supremely critical to what most of us would otherwise refer to as “life.” Although perhaps a crowning glory of the human species, consciousness is only one attribute of life and living; life and living does not necessarily imply consciousness.
6. We could talk all day long about subjective this or that, but whatever subjectivity is, it seems to be highly varied, difficult to conceptualize, difficult to measure, and hence not a thing that one can get their hands around. This means that whatever we might say about consciousness, states of mind (or the absence thereof), awareness, meditation, etc. are largely “just talking” (speculation). “Yeah, it’s fun and all, but I mean, what are we *really* talking about?”
Whadayathink? Am I close?
One problem with these assumptions and values might be that various fields of study have been poking holes into all of these ideas. Sure, no one has brought forward a full-blown, replicable, empirical demonstration that a “naive realist’s” view of reality is wrong, but there are a number of important findings that suggest that things are just not quite what we would (naively) believe without careful investigation or instruction.
The findings from different fields of study are “troublesome.” On the one hand, a realist’s view of reality is so pervasive, comprehensive, and shared among folks that Not To Believe would imply that one is a bit crazy or foolish. On the other hand, being somewhat knowledgable in the areas of perception, cognition, neuro-everything, information processing, decision making, etc. would suggest to a prudent man / woman that one might be a bit careful about saying what things there are and what things there aren’t.
One could go so far as to say that, “yes, there are appearances . . . there are ‘things’ (at least of sorts), but one cannot say just what they are.” (Or some such notion.)
“Everyone knows that . . . .”
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 11:42am PT
|
there are a number of important findings that suggest that things are just not quite what we would (naively) believe without careful investigation or instruction.
No doubt. In some sense, things are never what they seem to be. But we make do.
Most of us go according to simple rules we have learned, like looking both ways before crossing a busy street. I don't care what you think a car IS. I know I don't what to get hit by one.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 12:58pm PT
|
Consciousness is a description of particular human behavior.
Everything living in the whole cosmic manifestation has consciousness.
It's never limited to only human behavior.
Even a simple blade of grass has consciousness and individuality .......
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 01:34pm PT
|
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 02:07pm PT
|
Were it not for Ed’s efforts here, I’m sure I’d not be understood.
"Here, let me fix that for you."
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 05:02pm PT
|
What is "Understanding?"
|
|
i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 05:09pm PT
|
Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. : )
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
|
Since "gravamen" refers to a complaint or grievance - and I have none - you imbue my simple expression of disbelief or non-agreement with an emotional component that does not exist, Mike.
One problem with these assumptions and values might be that various fields of study have been poking holes into all of these ideas
And opening new, interesting avenues of investigation and argument. However, among those avenues are metaphysical and philosophical lanes that were appropriate two centuries ago, but appear to offer very little or no enlightenment today. What is the record? Dennett's Folly? Research done in the Noetic Science Institute?
Is it just that humankind hasn't developed the right investigative tools, or are spiritual approaches simply void of significant content? When JL talks about empty awareness I think of a playgoer who arrives five hours late so he can sit and contemplate the empty stage. Which is fine if that's what gives him pleasure, but his actions would seem a tad peculiar for many of us. But if someone wants to be so engaged I would hope he would report back to us and explain how his experiential adventure led to a deeper understanding of drama and the theater. Or led anywhere, for that matter.
As you have opined frequently these are just words and speculation. That being said, when I first engaged in the Art of Dreaming it was very tempting to accept the position held by many practitioners that the experience allowed one to visit Astral Planes and witness the astounding truth underlying reality.
The djinn in the bottle once again trying to grant my wishes. The mind is a wonderful thing, but it has an imagination of its own.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 06:28pm PT
|
I like your wisdom, Sir go-B.
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 09:25pm PT
|
Jgill: Since "gravamen" refers to a complaint or grievance - and I have none . . . .
This stretches the credibility that I have in you. I think you have a stand, and I think it matters to you.
. . . among those avenues are metaphysical and philosophical lanes that were appropriate two centuries ago, but appear to offer very little or no enlightenment today.
No. The research I’m aware of is empirical. Some things don’t come together. Reality could well be constructed.
You refer to djinns, astral planes, dreaming, imagination, and watching empty stages. I think the tone of your writing indicates you are sure of what you believe—viz, it is certainly not “any of that.” Any form of spiritualism is (apparently) pretty silly to you.
(BTW, I don’t believe that having a gravamen needs emotional import. It refers to a technical complaint, as is usually found in law.)
None of this really matters.
Happy New Year! Cheers.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 09:58pm PT
|
Reality could well be constructed
Like The Matrix? Could be, and if so JL might be ahead of all of us recognizing empty awareness is the stage upon which the scaffolding is hung.
Any form of spiritualism is (apparently) pretty silly to you
Actually, I have respect for I-b-Gob and others who have found peace in religion. I don't subscribe to it but I don't consider it silly. However, I'm highly skeptical of seances and ectoplasm or inferring that the vision in a meditative state has profound connections to particle physics.
But I have no complaints, hence no gravamens.
Happy New Year!
;>)
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2016 - 07:25am PT
|
Jgill: The Matrix . . . seances and ectoplasm
This is what you’ve taken from the discussions here on mind.
. . . vision in a meditative state has profound connections to particle physics.
I don’t know what this means.
|
|
cintune
climber
The Model Home
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2016 - 10:38am PT
|
^^ Centuries ago Zen practitioners came up with their concept of voidness in the context of desire and suffering and all that. Then, much more recently, physicists came up with their observations of the teeny-tiny aspects of the universe, in a completely impersonal context. Then, just yesterday as it were, JL among others decided to claim that these two conclusions about different things were mutually reinforcing. And maybe they are, or maybe not. Circles back to what you want to believe.
Hope 2017 is better to everyone than this past one has been.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!