Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Oct 25, 2013 - 11:09am PT
|
I like how all the news sources report this as though it was absolute truth.
If you go there, then you cannot believe any news story you read or hear.
Interesting, that.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Oct 25, 2013 - 11:12am PT
|
Just as he said that he would, he is timing the release of information so as to cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US.
Ken, can you back up this claim? I've never read that.
Thx,
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Oct 25, 2013 - 11:46am PT
|
re Greenwald ..Well that is what happens when you go out of the way to make enemies and try to intimidate a man by harassing him and those he cares about.
I'm more concerned about the threat to our freedoms posed by apparatuses like the NSA than anything a journalist can spill about them.
A while back a president was taken down by a couple journalists.. our nation was fine. But stooping to control journalists , to threaten and censor their work.. well that's another nail in the coffin of freedoms we should be much more concerned about.
Especially so when the supposed secrets that are being shared are something that amounts to common sense assumptions anyone should have made years ago based on the mission and capabilities of our spy agencies.
OMG BIG NEWS THE NSA IS A SPY AGENCY ...LOL
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Oct 25, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
|
Yeah, Werner posted a link to an old MSM article that outlined a lot of what the NSA was doing; I believe it was the NYT, or the Post. We all knew what they were up to. Heck, if you didn't believe there were NSA back doors into every operating system commercially available, then you weren't paying attention. It's just the scope and total lack of oversight that's astounding. That, and the budget to actually do it all.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Oct 25, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
|
If the UK and US governments believe that tactics like this are going to deter or intimidate us in any way from continuing to report aggressively on what these documents reveal, they are beyond deluded. If anything, it will have only the opposite effect: to embolden us even further.
Away from his desk, Greenwald is more overtly pissed, telling reporters at the airport in Rio de Janeiro, where he met Miranda upon his return home:
I will be far more aggressive in my reporting from now. I am going to publish many more documents. I am going to publish things on England too. I have many documents on England's spy system. I think they will be sorry for what they did.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Oct 25, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
|
That's a far cry from saying he's trying to "cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US."
Come on... Do not equate the act of exposing gov't wrongdoing with doing that gov't harm.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Oct 25, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
|
Thanks for reminding me, I gotta catch that one, Cumberbunch is rad.
Not much to do with Snowden though.
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Oct 25, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
|
Ken M says «Just as he said that he would, he is timing the release of information so as to cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US.» and «That would seem to me to be an act of war, by a traitor.»
What Greenwald has said is: «I will be far more aggressive in my reporting from now. I am going to publish many more documents. I am going to publish things on England too. I have many documents on England's spy system. I think they will be sorry for what they did.»
Greenwald has not uttered a word about damaging the government, not a word about damaging the US, not a word about doing anything that will harm the American people. To see the words of Greenwald as the words of a traitor is extreme… Ken M is in this instance extreme… and in my view "a traitor of reason", his reasoning weak and his conclusions are not following from his premises. To me it seems like Ken M is spinning just like jghedge in the surveillance case. Surprising to me, but quite clear by now.
There are times through history where I am very thankful that there were exceptional journalists who had the courage to report on matters that made people in the power structure upset, in ways that were seen as aggressive by the people in the power structure.
Newspapers are today more and more defining their role as supporters of people in the power system, when the role of the newspapers should more often be to disclose the transgressions of people in power.
An example of another journalist who was attacked by the power system and who dared to report in a way that was seen as a transgression by the power structure of his time :
"In the immediate aftermath of the atomic bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast. It was the first big lie. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation and journalistic abdication, which the Australian reporter Wilfred Burchett put right with his scoop of the century. "I write this as a warning to the world," reported Burchett in the Daily Express, having reached Hiroshima after a perilous journey, the first correspondent to dare. He described hospital wards filled with people with no visible injuries but who were dying from what he called "an atomic plague". For telling this truth, his press accreditation was withdrawn, he was pilloried and smeared - and vindicated."
What I’m not enthusiastic about when it comes to the actions of Greewald in this instance is the «retaliation voice» that can be read from his words. The disclosure of the surveillance system does not gain anything from a «retaliation mindset» caused by the harrassment of his partner by the British authorities. If they bring Greenwald out of balance, they have achieved what they wanted. I’m glad he seems to have regained his balance. I hope he just let off steam after the British transgression.
|
|
HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
|
|
|
Oct 25, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
|
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Oct 25, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
|
I'll have a toasted cheese sandwich along with my SAM.
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
|
Oct 30, 2013 - 11:47am PT
|
We need to figure out how to re-engineer the internet to prevent this kind of wholesale spying. We need new techniques to prevent communications intermediaries from leaking private information.
That's the bottom line for me. There are no political solutions for this, only technical ones. Encryption, alternative routes for internet traffic, and so on. Before 9/11 this was a pretty hot issue, PGP was a radical, activist program. But then the boogeyman took over and privacy advocates had to hide lest they get obliterated by the expanding police state.
At some point I think the US military/security budget will be its downfall. Same thing happened with the Soviet Union. The military is 99% waste and only grows and grows. I live in Washington DC, where the local economy is still booming, and always will be, since taxes and military spending will always increase.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Oct 30, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
|
It is Glenn Greenwald.
Just as he said that he would, he is timing the release of information so as to cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US. And he has caused damage. I heard that opinion last night by a panel consisting of a lead FBI agent, the former Ambassador to Pakistan, and the Lead So Cal attorney for the ACLU, who all agreed on this point.
That would seem to me to be an act of war, by a traitor.
actually, i think that he is brilliantly causing maximal embarassment. every week there is more information out there on just how slimy NSA has been. listening in on angela merkels calls? really?
not one report has indicated real damage to teh USA. embarassment? yes. as we should be.
|
|
nah000
climber
canuckistan
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2013 - 03:57am PT
|
a good ted talk summarizing many of the primary issues at hand:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
the speakers conceptual framing of the u.s. surveillance state and its willing and maybe sometimes unwitting corporate partners as just another colonial venture is a poignant one.
as it seems to date, as though the u.s. public is generally pretty content with the revelations about and actions of their gov't, it'll be interesting to see how the rest of the world reacts to their own leaders being tapped, their own corporate infrastructures being surveilled and etc.
given that the citizens of the empire are, as a general rule, not discontented enough to take any action, it will likely have to be the citizens of the informationally colonialized that drive any potential change.
and if there is to be any change it will not be due to "protesting" or "outrage", but rather will only happen if some mass movement hits corporate [and their governmental puppets] interests in their pocket books.
|
|
nah000
climber
canuckistan
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2013 - 05:31am PT
|
Riley Wyna wrote: "Yup, and the moment a bunch of nut case jihadists are able to take over an American mall, the way they took over a Kenyan mall, all that horse sh#t you just wrote will go out the window."
it's true, neither i nor my friends or family have been put in the situation you describe. and so you're right with regard to the implied truism that untested talk is ultimately cheap.
otoh, don't be so arrogant as to believe that your point of chosen compromise is necessarily the one that all others will follow if only they experience the world to be, as you believe/fear it to be.
the "live free or die: death is not the worst of evils" mindset is not exclusive to the individuals of any one territory.
on my own personal list of evils worse than death are state activities such as mass and warrantless surveillance, pattern-based "signature" drone strikes, non-challengeable no-fly lists, future crime based incarceration or assassination, ... you get the picture. just because it mostly only happens to brown people at this point, doesn't make it any more abhorrent to me.
but, we can check back in another 40 years and see whether any of us have changed our minds, regarding what makes us more "secure".
given the federal u.s. state is, 40 years later, still relatively committed to an, imo, as equally lizard brain driven "war on drugs" as this more recent "war on terror" it's likely there will still be something to argue with each other over the internet about.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
Congrats Californians on leading the way into the police state! Dianne Feinstein shows once again that she's lovin the surveillance. Never been a phone tap on you she didn't love. Here's some snippets on her new bill which my Senator (same party) voted against.
"Not Even Feinstein Calls Her Bill, Which Legalizes & Expands Surveillance, ‘Reform’
"As Trevor Timm of the Electronic Frontier Foundation suggests, her bill would “permanently entrench the NSA’s collection of every phone record held by US telecoms.”"
....
The American Civil Liberties Union argues Feinstein’s legislation would legalize “warrantless wiretapping of people known to be located in the US for seven days, if surveillance began abroad. It would legalize “queries of US persons’ names or email addresses without probable cause” so long as there was an “articulable foreign intelligence purpose.”
...
End snippets.
I find the NSA actions and the direction this administration going to monitor, kill and control US citizens and the press abhorrent. However, I also know that I'd feel worse if some towel heads were able to explode a dirty nuc in my city.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
It is Glenn Greenwald.
Just as he said that he would, he is timing the release of information so as to cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US. And he has caused damage. I heard that opinion last night by a panel consisting of a lead FBI agent, the former Ambassador to Pakistan, and the Lead So Cal attorney for the ACLU, who all agreed on this point.
That would seem to me to be an act of war, by a traitor.
If "causing damage" means interfering the US government violating it's constitution and international law for the sake of ???? (Tapping Merkels phone is hardly an anti-terrorist move) then I'm all for it.
If it makes the US look bad in the eyes of the world, that's not a problem.. we should look bad and change, cause guess what, we're not really fooling anybody
Snowden has done us the greatest service. We should stop being such pussies and throw out our constitution and civil rights the minute somebody brings up the terrorist bogeyman.
Really. More people die of tylenol overdoses in the US than terrorism
peace
karl
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
Are you all for interfering with the US in it's attempts to conduct it's lawful activities, such as negotiating with other countries on a variety of security and defense topics?
DURING A TIME OF WAR, traitor?
Glad you're all for it.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
actually, i think that he is brilliantly causing maximal embarassment. every week there is more information out there on just how slimy NSA has been. listening in on angela merkels calls? really?
not one report has indicated real damage to the USA. embarassment? yes. as we should be.
Hawkeye, I realize you just skip over the things that you don't agree with, or don't understand.....so you probably missed the part about the UCLA law professor and the chief attorney for the ACLU agreed that the country had been damaged.
Of course, that doesn't meet your lofty standards.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
"Are you all for interfering with the US in it's attempts to conduct it's lawful activities, such as negotiating with other countries on a variety of security and defense topics?
DURING A TIME OF WAR, traitor?"
Such BS. War is defined by the constitution as needing a formal declaration by congress. This is a BS war for the sake of strategic control and the military industrial complex.
and as a matter of fact, it's against international law to spy on the UN as we've done and would you also condone it if our allies had Obama's phone and email tapped?
It's completely lame to accept that the government has all our phones and web tapped in direct violation of the 4th amendment. The only way we know the government has become the real traitor is guys like Snowden.
The agencies of the government do not constitute our country when they run afoul of our principles. then THEY are the traitors
Peace
Karl
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!