Huge 8.9 quake plus tsunami - Japan

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Full Silos of Iowa

Mar 30, 2011 - 06:00pm PT

I agree that RRradam was certainly downplaying the real costs and hazards

Bs.

We don't want to come to terms with the reality...

The species, let alone many a human culture or human individual... doesn't want to come to terms with a bunch of realities (in other words, truths), not just one or two.

Heck, for then that might mean... the destruction of cherished beliefs... the undermining of the mission... the end to time-honored institutions... whatever.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Full Silos of Iowa

Mar 30, 2011 - 06:05pm PT

When people say almost nobody died at 3 mile Island and a handful at Chernobyl, that's just happy talk like saying cigarette smoke isn't really proved to cause cancer, it's just a coinkydink that so many smokers die.

What distinguishes your talk from the sleepyass type c personalities (aka wusses) of the world who think rockclimbing should be illegal? -Because of the scores of deaths that happen "needlessly."

Fewer people died from nuclear practices at 3MI than from rockclimbing. Where's the perspective. Get real, man.

See, this is what happens when informed folks get scared away by all the bs: then the bs comes out in even more force - in legions, in confederacies.

cf: confederacies of loons (or is it, confederacies of dunces)
cf: leagues of morons

.....

Radical and Klimmer are from the same camp, just opposite poles. They should hook up.

stevep

Boulder climber

Salt Lake, UT

Mar 30, 2011 - 06:40pm PT

I don't think Adam downplayed too much.
Even though things don't seem too be doing too well, I still don't think this has risen to the level of Chernobyl. And I think he admitted it was worse than TMI.

He also said he was disappointed in the level of communication and info from the Japanese. Without that, it is somewhat difficult to tell how big the prob is.

lostinshanghai

Social climber

someplace

Mar 30, 2011 - 06:46pm PT

Japan’s Gov. not in charge or does not have a clue on what is going on, TEPCO has not a clue what is going on and looks like IAEA does not have a clue either or holding back information. Sound familiar?

Why did it take so long for the US to respond with BP. One, the US did not have a clue on how to fix it, since they relied on the expertise of BP. Two: BP executives’ were clueless [They had countless warnings but ignored them] and in turn had no backup system or ignored this do to cost $$$$$ or safety and Cheney’s deregulations. Three: Thinking if they could get in under control, still use the well for oil. And Four: The issue of preserving the evidence “The pump” to see who was at fault. Figure/finger pointing? There are other issues but the above is just a few.

Ok! Back to Japan same thing thinking. Hey! Not too bad, maybe we can fix it and get it back up and running but again no direction, too proud not for asking help and too late in decision-making.

Anyway latest news is the government plans to spray a water-soluble resin over debris at the crippled facility or # 3 power plant to prevent radiation leaks from spreading further, officials said Wednesday. An unmanned, remote-controlled vehicle will spray the solution in order to affix radioactive substances onto the debris the officials said.

The work will begin on a trial basis on Thursday.

Within the compound, masses of debris are strewn about the plant as a result of explosions, and this is making it very difficult for plant workers to bring the crisis under control.

While frantic efforts are underway to cool reactors and remove water contaminated with high levels of radiation from facilities in the plant, the government hopes to facilitate by the task by making it safe for workers to perform.

The resin is designed to prevent dirt containing radioactive substances being scattered in the wind, the officials said, adding that the operation will be carried out by Tokyo Electric Power Company owner of the atomic power plant.

Spraying resin over the debris at the plant is a temporary measure before fundamental measures are taken to contain radioactive substances, the officials added.

Also the US is sending [should be there now] special cameras to help in this situation.

So look for 4 to be buried and two a possible usage.

End

And just one more bit of information recently revealed.

Last paragraph and in bold.

Though the IAEA is best known for the role it plays in monitoring whether countries such as Iran are complying with international nuclear weapons treaties, most of its resources are dedicated to promoting the peaceful use of nuclear energy, a mandate it has had since its founding in 1957.
Countries have no obligation to follow the IAEA's advice. "The IAEA is not a nuclear watchdog; it is an arbitrator," says Robert Kelley, a recently retired IAEA analyst.

"The IAEA doesn't have specialists trained to deal with a nuclear catastrophe," says Iouli Andreev, who headed a team of Soviet specialists that responded to the world's worst nuclear accident at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant in Ukraine.

An IAEA spokesman declined to comment

Mr. Andreev says the IAEA was similarly dependent on Soviet information during the Chernobyl crisis in 1986. Then, the IAEA received data provided in part by Mr. Andreev's team, "but much of that information was false," Mr. Andreev says. In the immediate aftermath of the accident, Soviet officials took pains to convince the international community that the accident wasn't as dire as many feared.

The IAEA's difficulty in engaging in Japan has been particularly surprising given that its director general, Mr. Amano, is a former Japanese government official with deep knowledge of his country's nuclear infrastructure.

*Excerpt from March 17th Wall Street Journal article: Environment & Science, title: Nuclear Agency’s Assessment Lags by David Crawford and Flemming Hansen

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Full Silos of Iowa

Mar 30, 2011 - 07:06pm PT

And I think he admitted it was worse than TMI.

That he did. More than once, too.

mynameismud

climber

backseat

Mar 30, 2011 - 07:07pm PT

http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/chernobyl

Some people say it isn't true since it is obvious to any educated person that Nuclear energy is safe and only 23 died as a result of Chernobyl.

Trad climber

SF,CA

Mar 30, 2011 - 07:41pm PT

So I hear that the reactor that is melting down could form a hydrogen bubble that could expload sending lots of really nasty stuff into the atmosphere; like maybe plutonium ? If that happens will the other reactors become off limits and they will then do the same thing? living in berkeley I am thinking we are definately down wind and that isn't good.

Could you guys cool it with the personal attacks it feels like junior high school.

mynameismud

climber

backseat

Mar 30, 2011 - 08:17pm PT

Yes, your definitely gonna die someday in the future

S.Leeper

Social climber

Ft. Useless, Virginia

Mar 30, 2011 - 08:18pm PT

some impressive footage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qAjG7zitNE&feature=

mynameismud

climber

backseat

Mar 30, 2011 - 08:19pm PT

Israel has sent special equipment,
The evil one

Yes, it is called a missile.

Do not look up

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Mar 30, 2011 - 08:38pm PT

HFCS wrote

Get real? Take Chernobyl, some 150,000 square kilometres in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine are contaminated and stretch northward of the plant site as far as 500 kilometres. An area spanning 30 kilometres around the plant is considered the “exclusion zone” and is essentially uninhabited. There are 187 small communities in the exclusion zone that remain virtually abandoned to this day. A few inhabitants chose to return to their homes in the exclusion zone, but children are not allowed to live in this area. For practical purposes, large areas, when 10s of thousands lived are uninhabitable for the next 20,000 years. If Japan's situation gets much worse, the happy talk will be gravely understated. When I brought up the exclusion zone, Rrrradam said it was exaggerated and that people still live there (defying government directions)

From

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jan/10/chernobyl-nuclear-deaths-cancers-dispute

"At the children's cancer hospital in Minsk, Belarus, and at the Vilne hospital for radiological protection in the east of Ukraine, specialist doctors are in no doubt they are seeing highly unusual rates of cancers, mutations and blood diseases linked to the Chernobyl nuclear accident 24 years ago.

But proving that infant mortality hundreds of miles from the stricken nuclear plant has increased 20-30% in 20 years, or that the many young people suffering from genetic disorders, internal organ deformities and thyroid cancers are the victims of the world's greatest release of radioactivity, is impossible.

The UN's World Health Organisation and the International Atomic Energy Agency claim that only 56 people have died as a direct result of the radiation released at Chernobyl and that about 4,000 will die from it eventually.

They also say that only a few children have died of cancers since the accident and, that most of the illnesses usually linked to Chernobyl are due to psychological distress, radiophobia or poverty and unhealthy living.

But other reputable scientists researching the most radiation-contaminated areas of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine are not convinced. The International Agency for Research on Cancer, another UN agency, predicts 16,000 deaths from Chernobyl; an assessment by the Russian academy of sciences says there have been 60,000 deaths so far in Russia and an estimated 140,000 in Ukraine and Belarus.

Meanwhile, the Belarus national academy of sciences estimates 93,000 deaths so far and 270,000 cancers, and the Ukrainian national commission for radiation protection calculates 500,000 deaths so far.

The mismatches in figures arise because there have been no comprehensive, co-ordinated studies of the health consequences of the accident. This is in contrast to Nagasaki and Hiroshima, where official research showed that the main rise in most types of cancer and non-cancer diseases only became apparent years after the atomic bombs fell.

With Chernobyl there have been difficulties in gathering reliable data from areas left in administrative chaos after the accident. Hundreds of thousands of people were moved away from the affected areas, and the break-up of the Soviet Union led to records being lost.

Controversy rages over the agendas of the IAEA, which has promoted civil nuclear power over the past 30 years, and the WHO. The UN accepts only peer-reviewed scientific studies written in certain journals in English, a rule said to exclude dozens of other studies.

Four years ago, an IAEA spokesman said he was confident the WHO figures were correct. And Michael Repacholi, director of the UN Chernobyl forum until 2006, has claimed that even 4,000 eventual deaths could be too high. The main negative health impacts of Chernobyl were not caused by the radiation but by the fear of it, he claimed.

But today Linda Walker, of the UK Chernobyl Children's Project, which funds Belarus and Ukraine orphanages and holidays for affected children, called for a determined effort to learn about the effects of the disaster. "Parents are giving birth to babies with disabilities or genetic disorders … but, as far as we know, no research is being conducted."

See, there is this effect of happy talkers... no need to do any research, radiation is safe, only proved deaths are real deaths and we can't prove very much.... These are all scientists involved in the above studies that put the health effects of Chernobyl between about 60 deaths and millions of cancers. If real scientists can't come to any agreement that's remotely close, I say we don't know enough to trust the technology or the scientists.

The difference between this and rockclimbing is this, In rockclimbing, you risk your own life knowing it's dangerous. With nukes, you risk thousands or millions of lives of OTHERS, while telling them there's virtually no chance of a serious accident. Japan proves otherwise and people need to get their head out of the sand in that.

I'm not calling Rradam any names or saying he's a bad guy, or saying that about any of ya'll. I'm disputing what's been said here. It's obvious that if, before this disaster, we had a discussion about the likelihood of this very event happening, it would have been downplayed, minimized and dismissed. But time will show this plainly, the situation is hell and will cost many mints before it's over.

peace

Karl

hb81

climber

Mar 30, 2011 - 08:48pm PT

some impressive footage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qAjG7zitNE&feature=

unreal...

It just keeps getting worse and worse throughout the video... seems like it wasn't one wave but more like 3 or 4 ones that followed each other.
How you can have the guts to film while all hell breaks loose around you is beyond me.

golsen

Social climber

kennewick, wa

Mar 30, 2011 - 08:51pm PT

I am not a nuclear reactor expert. However, I am an expert at cleaning up some of the worst environmental messes that man has ever made. There is not a 5 minute fix to this Nuclear event. It will take weeks before some sort of progress will be made. It is not a TV show where a happy ending will appear in two hours, so break out your popcorn, relax and recognize that there is a lot of help over there. You are not hearing about it because nobody wants to further humiliate the Japanese (through criticizing or taking control) nor do they want to step on their toes after they have already suffered a disaster to their collective psyche. Instead the external help is behind the scenes trying to do as much as possible. Yeah, it may not make for the kind of News you all want, too bad, welcome to reality.

The workers are trying to contain the radioactivity and keep the fuel rods (either spent or in the reactor containment vessel) cool. That is their mission and so far given all the circumstances they seem to have been doing it fairly well. One problem they have at this point is that contaminated water (from cooling) is filling up secondary containment areas, creating issues with the workers as well as the potential for further release into the environment. All types of options are being examined, and there are experts at the DOE National Labs working to develop and explore any options that may be likely to help.

It is fine to worry about this, it is a mess, make no mistake about it. But try and keep it in perspective. In 2008 there were 39,000 deaths due to transportation accidents in the USA.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s1103.pdf

Should we all stop driving to climbing areas? Should we drive tanks? Lower the speed limit to 10mph? If the Nuclear Accident in Japan continues on its present course I would bet money that the death rate of it will be insignificant as compared to driving in the US.

Does this mean that the Nuclear Accident is something to forget about it? Absolutely not. But cries of hysteria are based not on an understanding, nor are they based upon science, nor are they based upon the relative risks to human health and the environment. They are based on emotion. Some of you roasted Adam for trying to provide an educated perspective. It reminds me of witch hunters. Fry the person who does not think like you and lets get the crowd in a frenzy so everyone will agree. The days of Rumsfeld? Bush?

Sometimes I am not sure what is more pathetic, a mob response against someone like Adam or the accident itself.

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Mar 30, 2011 - 09:06pm PT

Amen!

mynameismud

climber

backseat

Mar 30, 2011 - 09:08pm PT

It is fine to worry about this, it is a mess, make no mistake about it. But try and keep it in perspective. In 2008 there were 39,000 deaths due to transportation accidents in the USA.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s1103.pdf

Should we all stop driving to climbing areas? Should we drive tanks? Lower the speed limit to 10mph? If the Nuclear Accident in Japan continues on its present course I would bet money that the death rate of it will be insignificant as compared to driving in the US.

Bad analogy.

people get cavities, ban coffee. pfft

klk

Trad climber

cali

Mar 30, 2011 - 09:23pm PT

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/29/134960843/Environmentalist-Monbiot-Supports-Nuclear-Power

read it and weep, hippies!

heh

S.Leeper

Social climber

Ft. Useless, Virginia

Mar 30, 2011 - 09:31pm PT

How you can have the guts to film while all hell breaks loose around you is beyond me.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

mammoth lakes ca

Mar 30, 2011 - 10:48pm PT

George Monbiot sees the light and decides Nuclear Energy is the wave of the future...? Make that f*#king idiot fly to Japan and help those floundering TEPCO employees save the melting reactors and see if Mister opinionated feels so warm and glowing about this toxic energy source...rj