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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Nov 25, 2016 - 08:36pm PT
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If your mind is very quiet then you'll see things as they are and not from memory.
It may feel that way, and it is a good thing to quiet the mind, but memory runs much deeper. It isn't just about recognizing or naming objects. You may escape from conscious awareness of memory, but that doesn't mean you have reached a condition in which your memories play no role.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 25, 2016 - 08:53pm PT
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I seem to recall an incident in which a man under hypnosis was told he would not see his wife. When he snapped out she was standing right in front of him, but he did not see her. He could see normally everything else.
It's hard to imagine what he did see. What about objects behind her? Somehow the mind wall-papered over his perception without it seeming odd.
A similar fictitious scenario occurred last week on HBO's Westworld. Bernard - a cyborg of sorts - was told he would not see the woman he had murdered. Nor would he remember doing so.
The more disciplined the mind . . .
Would you say that is synonymous with the mind being very quiet? My mind is very quiet as I fall asleep. On the other hand when I look deeply into a math problem my mind is not very quiet, but it is very disciplined.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 25, 2016 - 09:04pm PT
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Doesn't this assume that recent memory is perfect? What of memory many years past, like meeting someone you haven't seen in twenty years? Will the mind be in sync? I have found this experience to be rattling at times, being difficult to reconcile memory with current reality.
I suspect you are talking about meditative calm as described by the woo-masters on this thread. When they say there is no distinction between objects my opinion is that they are in a peculiar mental state that is no more correct than it is mistaken.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 25, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
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And with that I shall retire and calm my mind.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Nov 25, 2016 - 09:40pm PT
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"Astronomer Carl Sagan put it this way: “We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star.” Stephen Hawking was even blunter: “The human race is just a chemical scum on a moderate-sized planet.”
An objective look, however, at just two of the most dramatic discoveries of astronomy — big bang cosmology and planets around other stars (exoplanets) — suggests the opposite. We seem to be cosmically special, perhaps even unique — at least as far as we are likely to know for eons.
The first result — the anthropic principle — has been accepted by physicists for 43 years. The universe, far from being a collection of random accidents, appears to be stupendously perfect and fine-tuned for life. The strengths of the four forces that operate in the universe — gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear interactions (the latter two dominate only at the level of atoms) — for example, have values critically suited for life, and were they even a few percent different, we would not be here. The most extreme example is the big bang creation: Even an infinitesimal change to its explosive expansion value would preclude life. The frequent response from physicists offers a speculative solution: an infinite number of universes — we are just living in the one with the right value. But modern philosophers such as Thomas Nagel and pioneering quantum physicists such as John Wheeler have argued instead that intelligent beings must somehow be the directed goal of such a curiously fine-tuned cosmos. It seems likely that exoplanets could host extraterrestrial intelligence. But intelligence is not so easy to produce. Paleontologist Peter Ward and astronomer Donald Brownlee summarize the many constraints in their book “Rare Earth: Why Complex Life is Uncommon in the Universe ” and show why it takes vastly more than liquid water and a pleasant environment to give birth even to simple (much less complex) life. At a minimum, it takes an environment stable for billions of years of evolution, plus all the right ingredients. Biologists from Jacques Monod to Stephen Jay Gould have emphasized the extraordinary circumstances that led to intelligence on Earth, while geneticists have found that DNA probably resulted from many accidents. So although the same processes operate everywhere, some sequences could be unlikely, even astronomically unlikely. The evolution of intelligence could certainly be such a sequence. There is, moreover, a well-known constraint: the finite speed of light, which ensures that even over thousands of years we will only be able to communicate with the comparatively few stars (tens of millions) in our cosmic neighborhood. If the combined astronomical, biological and evolutionary chances for life to form and evolve to intelligence are only 1 in 10 million, then we probably have no one to talk to.
The discovery of exoplanets was dramatic but not unexpected: Since the Greeks, we have imagined planets were common. Textbooks even taught that our solar system was typical. But the exotic diversity of exoplanets came as a surprise. Many have highly elliptical orbits around unstable stars, making evolution over billions of years difficult if not impossible; other systems contain giant planets that may have drifted inward, disrupting orbits; and there are many other unanticipated properties. These unexpected discoveries are helping scientists unravel Earth’s complex history.
The bottom line for extraterrestrial intelligence is that it is probably rarer than previously imagined, a conclusion called the misanthropic principle. For all intents and purposes, we could be alone in our cosmic neighborhood, and if we expand the volume of our search we will have to wait even longer to find out. Life might be common in the very distant universe — or it might not be — and we are unlikely to know. We are probably rare — and it seems likely we will be alone for eons. This is the second piece of new evidence that we are not ordinary."
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 25, 2016 - 09:47pm PT
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Jgill: . . . The range of this function (included in the interval between 0 and 1) has an uncountably infinite number of values, . . .
But it’s still one dimension. even though infinitely bracketed.
Which function / myth *are* you working?
Sun: If your mind is very quiet then you'll see things as they are and not from memory.
He [Jgill] doesn’t get it. Won't get it. Doesn’t want to.
There seems to be a great many, apparent glitches in the matrix that we don't get. That's what limits us. We think there is / are problems--none of which really exists. It's a waste.
Happy Thanksgiving!
(I'm full.)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Nov 26, 2016 - 07:28am PT
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Recent memory is not used nor is past memory only the original all encompassing memory foundation is used. Without a solid original foundation, nothing will ever live nor last.
The quiet part of my mind sees that sun is Werner under sedation.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2016 - 08:38am PT
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MikeL writes:
He [Jgill] doesn’t get it. Won't get it. Doesn’t want to.
but I thought he [MikeL] was arguing there wasn't an "it" to "get"...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Nov 26, 2016 - 11:06am PT
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Its is a quaint tradition among intellectuals to acknowledge, by citation, the work of others...
Had no idea... learn something new everyday.
The argument for mind and intelligence as something special seems at least as valid as the counter argument.
And then there's that issue of the apostrophe.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Nov 26, 2016 - 12:16pm PT
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But it’s still one dimension. even though infinitely bracketed
Oh dear, [MikeL] has had too much turkey and wine. Let me explain. You are confusing the domain of a function with the range of a function. Algebra 101. All those oodles of dimension of experiential bliss you are concerned about are in the domain, not the range. To illustrate on an elementary level: I can design a function on the three-dimensional cube with sides one unit long that is one-to-one with points on the one-dimensional interval [0,1]. Here's how it's done: suppose we have a point in the cube, say (x,y,z)=(.325,.671,.549) Then
F(x,y,z)= .365274519000...This procedure applies to N-dimension cubes. True, these are only numbers, but you can see how your many-dimension items might be mapped since it's not theoretically impossible.
Happy Thanksgiving.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 26, 2016 - 08:29pm PT
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The man with several avatars here . . .
What on earth are you talking about? Too much holiday wine? "Avatars" an understudy for "degrees?" Or are you lumping together all the science-types on the thread? If so, elegant literary touch. And the issue of "it's" vs "its" is right up there with String Theory. As [MikeL] would so eloquently put it, "pffft."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 27, 2016 - 09:34am PT
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in today's NYTimes Sunday Review section, an opinion
Actually, Let’s Not Be in the Moment by RUTH WHIPPMAN
"Perhaps the single philosophical consensus of our time is that the key to contentment lies in living fully mentally in the present. The idea that we should be constantly policing our thoughts away from the past, the future, the imagination or the abstract and back to whatever is happening right now has gained traction with spiritual leaders and investment bankers, armchair philosophers and government bureaucrats and human resources departments."
...
"So perhaps, rather than expending our energy struggling to stay in the Moment, we should simply be grateful that our brains allow us to be elsewhere."
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Nov 27, 2016 - 12:24pm PT
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Mindfulness is an easy target especially since it is being commodified. You can become a mindfulness teacher with minimal experience or qualifications. Even the buddhist community has expressed concerns of what "mindfulness" is really proposing. http://www.lionsroar.com/the-real-practice-of-mindfulness/
Trunkpa warned against spiritual Materialism (doing a practice to get something for your self) early in his teaching of westerners.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 27, 2016 - 07:26pm PT
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From PSP's link:
"According to the Abhidhamma, consciousness arises and passes away each moment as a series of episodes in a continuing process. It is not a thing that exists, but an event that occurs—again and again—to yield the subjective experience of a stream of consciousness. Consciousness itself is rather simple and austere, consisting merely of the cognizing of a sense object by means of a sense organ. This event serves as a sort of seed around which a number of other mental factors crystallize to help consciousness create meaning from the stimuli presenting themselves so rapidly and relentlessly at the doors of the senses."
I like this.
Dr. Ford, in Westworld believes that consciousness doesn't exist. This HBO fantasy is something posters here might want to watch.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Nov 27, 2016 - 09:57pm PT
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JGill I thought you would like the clarity of that article on mindfulness. It is informative and straight forward and also showed how the commodification of mindfulness is generally off the mark from buddhist practice of mindfulness. This isn't surprising because as JL often says "it is slippery " and commodification doesn't like slippery environments such as working with dualism .
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Nov 28, 2016 - 07:59am PT
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commodification doesn't like slippery environments such as working with dualism
A student of figures of speech and rhetorical devices recognizes this as personification.
An example from Jonathan Berkowitz on CBC Radio's North by Northwest:
"Why should you never attribute human characteristics to animals?"
"Because they hate it when you do."
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 28, 2016 - 09:07am PT
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Jgill: All those oodles of dimension of experiential bliss you are concerned about are in the domain, not the range.
Sez you. (How would you know? Are you reporting your own raw, unelaborated experience?)
True, these are only numbers, but you can see how your many-dimension items might be mapped since it's not theoretically impossible.
Nothing is theoretically impossible. You’ve imagined it, . . . haven’t you?
Ruth Whippman: The idea that we should be constantly policing our thoughts away from the past, the future, the imagination or the abstract and back to whatever is happening right now has gained traction with spiritual leaders and investment bankers, armchair philosophers and government bureaucrats and human resources departments.
Another sign of a speculative imagination. This articulation seems very interpretative to me. Just try relaxing, instead. I have not seen that one can police thoughts, nor have I heard of anyone else does that. PSP is right; I’ve seen it presented at conferences: mindfulness is now a management technique. Ugh.
Experience is full-bodied and presents not only with what can be imagined but also with hidden or unconscious expressions. If you notice, you can find periods where you think that nothing particular going on. But we seem to be constellations of personalities, moods, attitudes, fears, images, thoughts, feelings, passions and obsessions, and underground currents that play with one another. It appears to be that we cannot say what we are. One *may* say that awareness is chemical reactions, neurons interacting, but these declarations are conceptualizations and abstractions, rules of thumb, ego, fantasies, metaphors, expressions that are more artistic than truly objective. These declarations are actually subjective, no different than the indescribable experiences that appear to spawn them.
I think people here read what some of us write and perhaps think that the only thing “experience” points to is an ascetic, always-upward, absolute, god-nearness, peak experience, self-validating, self-justifying, godlike, intense, intrinsically valued, personifications of cloudlike wisps, with visions, away from physicality, away from what is materialistic, flight-like, transcendent, altered states of consciousness. This would seem to be nirvana. There is purportedly also samsara. More advanced masters say there is no difference between the two.
The 5 senses, emotions, passions, what’s been called the shadows (of that which you are unaware of in yourselves), feelings, images, dreams, etc. . . . all these things also seem to be what we are. (I know, it’s confusing, especially when I won’t light on one view or one perspective.)
Here is something the His Holiness the Dalai Lama wrote to Peter Goullart:
———————
The relation of height to spirituality is not merely metaphorical. It is physical reality. The most spiritual people on this planet live in the highest places. So do the most spiritual flowers . . . I call the high and light aspects of my being spirit and the dark and heavy aspect soul.
Soul is home in the deep, shaded valleys. Heavy torpid flowers saturated with black grow there. The rivers flow like warm syrup. They empty into huge oceans of soul.
Spirit is a land of high, white peaks and glittering jewel-like lakes and flowers. Life is sparse and sounds travel great distances.
There is soul music, soul food, soul dancing, and soul love . . . .
When the soul triumphed, the herdsmen came to the lamasaries, for soul is communal and loves humming in unison. But the creative soul craves spirit. Out of the jungles of the lamaseries, the most beautiful monks one day bid farewell to their comrades and go to make their solitary journey toward the peaks, there to mate with the cosmos. . . .
No spirit broods over lofty desolation; for desolation is of the depths, as is brooding. At these heights, spirit leaves soul far behind . . . .
People need to climb the mountain not simply because it is there but because soulful divinity needs to be mated with spirit.
————————
Be well.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Nov 28, 2016 - 10:22am PT
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The relation of height to spirituality is not merely metaphorical. It is physical reality.
Mark 12:30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
"For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth."
3 John 3
The truth was in Gaius, and Gaius walked in the truth. If the first had not been the case, the second could never have occurred; and if the second could not be said of him the first would have been a mere pretence. Truth must enter into the soul, penetrate and saturate it, or else it is of no value. Doctrines held as a matter of creed are like bread in the hand, which ministers no nourishment to the frame; but doctrine accepted by the heart, is as food digested, which, by assimilation, sustains and builds up the body. In us truth must be a living force, an active energy, an indwelling reality, a part of the woof and warp of our being. If it be in us, we cannot henceforth part with it. A man may lose his garments or his limbs, but his inward parts are vital, and cannot be torn away without absolute loss of life. A Christian can die, but he cannot deny the truth. Now it is a rule of nature that the inward affects the outward, as light shines from the centre of the lantern through the glass: when, therefore, the truth is kindled within, its brightness soon beams forth in the outward life and conversation. It is said that the food of certain worms colours the cocoons of silk which they spin: and just so the nutriment upon which a man's inward nature lives gives a tinge to every word and deed proceeding from him. To walk in the truth, imports a life of integrity, holiness, faithfulness, and simplicity--the natural product of those principles of truth which the gospel teaches, and which the Spirit of God enables us to receive. We may judge of the secrets of the soul by their manifestation in the man's conversation. Be it ours today, O gracious Spirit, to be ruled and governed by thy divine authority, so that nothing false or sinful may reign in our hearts, lest it extend its malignant influence to our daily walk among men.
CHARLES SPURGEON
Hebrews 5:11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
...Where the tire meets the road outward and inward, we should use all we have, heart, soul, mind, and strength!
And we all know, "How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
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