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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 23, 2011 - 03:35am PT
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Matt, don't you remember, about three years ago? We had it out on these forums, then realized we had more in common than not, decided to make up, then went on to fight crime together? I remember it all vividly, except for that last part. I'll try to dig up the posts.
All I'm saying is, at this point, I'd really like to see everyone on all sides of the issue start moving toward each other, rather than taking up defensive positions against each other. We're all getting too damn old for this, I'm thinking. I'd like nothing more than for the whole lot involved to grab a beer, allow for the fact that we're all human beings and capable of saying, doing, or thinking things that others don't agree with, and allow for that to be acceptable.
I'm not saying anyone has to give up their point of view, let's just allow some time, space, and forgiveness between each other, and wait to see what A&K have to say about their experience on the climb.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 23, 2011 - 03:39am PT
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Wings of Butter. Let's get over it. I wonder what that Honnold kid is up to these days. Let's leave a little room for the future.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Jul 23, 2011 - 03:42am PT
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I'm still stuck on the idea proposed earlier on,
That the flakes might have 'washed away in the rain' in the intervening years, making the route unclimbable in the way that the FA was climbed.
Since similar rain has been falling on the wall for thousands of years, why would the rain of this particular 30 year period make conditions appreciably different?
Also, I liked this line from RURPS' hilarious interpretive dialogue:
I will Prebail!!!!@#$!#$
Carry on....
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 23, 2011 - 03:42am PT
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Ohhhh boy. Self-Destruct sequence initiated...
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jul 23, 2011 - 03:52am PT
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so dood-
riddle me this:
what happened to all the souls of men born after christ, but in distant lands? and why did "god" let eons of generations of his children in so many (notably, mostly non-caucasian) civilizations go through life without the possibility of being saved? why did he(?) spread his message globally via such corrupt and insidious messengers as the church(es) so often showed themselves to be? and lastly, why did god then leave those golden plates buried in new york?
get past that stuff and hooking your way up el cap is simple
edit-
forgiveness is all well and good, but the proof is in the pudding.
any chance you got a hot 14 yr old daughter? if so, send her on a month long visit to cannukville, and then maybe you'll have proved at least your own faith?
(or your poor judgement, perhaps, instead)
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 23, 2011 - 03:58am PT
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Matt - dose tihs mean.... no cybr?/
...forgiveness is all well and good, but the proof is in the pudding.
Look, I'm just giving you my arrogant human opinion (Werner can attest to (and has experience with giving) that), all I'm asking is, rather than trolling, flaming, and accusing Bridwell of being unable to climax unless he's choking a prostitute, why don't we wait to receive that pudding? A&K are working on their article, why make this issue more absurd a spectacle than it already is? Why the need to engage this as a religious issue, a debate on homosexuality, and the status of one another's 14 year old daughters? Why don't we just don the tights, put on the masks, and go fight crime together like the old days that never happened, until such time as Ammon and Kait up and reveal what their experience was of the route?
You disagree with my own thoughts about Mark and Richard, and that's okay. You disagree with my thoughts about PTPP (though at times he is somewhat inconsiderate, even if he is generally awesome), and that's okay. I can understand you feel passionately about what you think, I think a lot of us here do. I propose we allow each other to be wrong every so often, and wait to see the proof that pudding provides before we go for each other's throat any more than has already been done.
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Scout 2
Trad climber
Placerville
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Jul 23, 2011 - 04:18am PT
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patiently waiting for the Vid/Documentry. like to see An interview with Mark /Richard and Ammon and kait. Get their perspective.From the horses mouth.
Then we will have to find something else to do like get back to climbing.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 23, 2011 - 04:44am PT
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Aw, mittens. Matt, did you get so drunk as to pass out?
Edit: Poor guy. To be continued in the morning, then.
Also, tonesfrommars, while I appreciate the dog anus, I wonder what the greater metaphorical and spiritual meaning of it is?
Oh my God. Why are we so afraid...?
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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Jul 23, 2011 - 09:20am PT
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Message to Ammon and Kait.
You 2 have been there and done it. In fine style and good time.
Mark and Richard have been there and done it 1st. You 2 had it the harshest. with shitbags.
IN 30 years I would think that only these 4 would be able to write something about the story. And based on what they remember about the route/history, THEY go interview SG/MIMI ect... The shitters, the WHO-gives a SHitters ect...
At the time of all this shitting in the Valley pete was probably coming out of the closet at 14y.o and didn't know the difference from naval jelly and KY jelly.
Look into Kickstarter films, kinda what their doing with Carl Boenish and BASE. document the journey, jokers, joy and kick'n ass 30 years later..
Ammon/Kait----- you 2 ROCK!!! Ammon call me. when you read this. Lets get out next month if you have time.
3,2,1,Cya
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 23, 2011 - 11:45am PT
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The story I wish to pursue is the story of Mark and Richard, the past and present, the smear campaign, and so on. To me, that's the real story, because it affected their entire lives for a quarter-century.
The only recognition I seek is the recognition that Mark Smith and Richard Jensen are not the villains and scoundrels they have been made out to be.
I see a contradiction. PtPP cannot both write an investigative article about “the story of Mark and Richard” if he has already decided on the conclusion. I think that’s Matt’s point, too. The story is there to be written, but it requires a vigorous, open-minded approach. Plus, how can one vindicate the honesty of the first ascent party's methods until AFTER Kait and Ammon tell their story.
Jensen and Smith’s persecution is hardly uniquely nasty. Aside from Robbins berating Warren Harding, who was not really an outsider, it probably began with Harvey T. Carter, whose ideas about pitons--leaving them in place, so as to protect the rock--were utterly alien to the locals in the 1960s; he took the original Sentinel(?) summit register and made off with it to Colorado (this really upset people!), argued loudly and at length with Roper, among others, about ethics and rating systems, finally sold his magazine “Climbing,” expressly to avoid the “fistfight” (his word) he could see he was going to get into with some California climbers.
Ed Cooper was vilified for his lengthy sieging of, what was the name of it again, Dihedral Wall?
I’d forgotten about the Hall of Mirrors. Was it really that bad? But Duane Raleigh put in his time in the Ditch, he should remember.
Another persecuted climber was of course Ray Jardine.
But the closest analogy is surely with Skinner and Piana. They, like Jensen and Smith, spent weeks camping on El Cap, obsessing over stupidly tiny bits of rock. Skinner and Piana were persecuted, accused of lying, cheating, etc, etc. It was ugly. Shortly after, they did a slideshow tour; I showed up skeptical, and left the slideshow at Boulder’s Gerry’s Mountain Sports still no clearer on whether these friendly, humorous, personable characters had, as claimed, climbed the Salathe Wall free, or whether they were, as the rumors insisted, hangdogging, lying cheats. And their photographer, Bill Hatcher, would only roll his eyes and say, Yup, I saw some AMAZING things up there!
But in the intervening years--decades now--the fiddly details have become unimportant. They helped usher in the era of freeing big walls. Plus, they went on to climb many more hard, free routes. Their reputations rest on a hefty resume of climbs, books, considerable contributions to the climbing community. Same with Ed Cooper, who, in 2011, is better known for his wonderful photography, and a long climbing career in the Northwest. Harvey Carter’s reputation rests on decades of climbing around Colorado and the Utah desert. Ray Jardine is remembered for freeing the 5.13 Phoenix, and his invention of, or perfection of, Friends--genius, really. The Hall of Mirrors guys have an impressive resume of respected first ascents, centered around Tuolumne.
Jensen and Smith?
What else HAVE they been up in the last quarter century?
Maybe the real story is how the most effective way to deal with persecution is to move on, prove by example that you are greater than the petty accusations.
Surely Jensen and Smith must be tired of this whole “victim” aura that allegedly surrounds them. I know they weren’t kicked out of the Valley, or anything like that. I remember meeting them as they were starting up Sea of Dreams and GoBee and I were starting, or collecting dropped gear from PO Wall. They were the Riverside Boys, back then. We had a good conversation, they seemed friendly, fully competent, thorough, if amazingly unconcerned with their rate of progress up the wall. Surely they have moved on, done other things that reflect something of the tenacity they showed on WoS?
Cheers,
Crusher
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Calvinclimber
Big Wall climber
Bend, OR
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Jul 23, 2011 - 11:58am PT
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GDavis- "...commentary on the events by Pete, firsthand accounts from Richard/Mark and Kate/Ammon."
thaDood- "I agree, this would be the most comphrehensive, and best suit the readers at large(majority of which don't post or lurk here). It would be good to see a joint and collaborative submission...let the healing begin!!"
This seems like the best approach to me.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jul 23, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
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I appreciate your grasp of history Crusher, the care you put into Desert Rock is apparent in that last post, measured and entertaining at the same time, while generous to the quirky obsessive individuals climbers can be.
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Slakkey
Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
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Jul 23, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
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By the time you resolve who the hell is gong to write what. The third and fourth ascent will have already occurred and no one will give a dam Geez. Got to admit this thread can be entertaining.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 23, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
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Crusher -
Surely Jensen and Smith must be tired of this whole “victim” aura that allegedly surrounds them. I know they weren’t kicked out of the Valley, or anything like that. I remember meeting them as they were starting up Sea of Dreams and GoBee and I were starting, or collecting dropped gear from PO Wall. They were the Riverside Boys, back then. We had a good conversation, they seemed friendly, fully competent, thorough, if amazingly unconcerned with their rate of progress up the wall. Surely they have moved on, done other things that reflect something of the tenacity they showed on WoS?
I think what Jensen and Smith are tired of is not so much the "victim" aura, as honestly being victims. Victims of persecution, double standards, prejudgment, and stigma that they can't seem to get out from under no matter what they do to try to resolve the situation. I can't speak for the other cases you mentioned and in fact, I don't think I personally could - or would - in good taste compare one climber's experience of persecution to anothers. However I do know that Smith and Jensen have, any way you slice it, faced intense, unrelenting persecution and prejudice over the past 30 years regarding this climb such that revealing their names or climb history in anything rock climbing related has led to their being harassed, refused sale of gear, and even being threatened with severe bodily harm and destruction of property.
I know Smith very well and I know of his frustration and Jensen himself has been very vocal about this exact subject, in fact you can read his own thoughts about the experience if you go back to his responses at the start of this thread. One of the things that he addresses is the notion that they should "move on and stop playing the victim", a notion I know causes them a great deal of frustration. Reason being, as they have stated, it sets up a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario whereby if they do not speak up in order to inform others of the details of the climb they are seen as responsible for perpetuating the slander on themselves for not resisting it or speaking out against it. But if they DO speak out against it, they are then derided for "not moving on", "not letting go", "playing the victim even after all this time"…
I understand what you're saying about them demonstrating through further climbing endeavors that their detractors are wrong, and so I think I should point out that as can also be seen by reading their responses at the start of this thread, they have done a large number of other high profile climbs. My understanding is that the way they performed these climbs often received similar slander and rumors of ethical violations linked to their being the Wings of Steel boys - something that you can actually see in action near the start of this thread. In fact, one of the things that Jensen mentions doing early on in response to the stigma of Wings of Steel was, going after the toughest climbs around and beating them simply to show that yes, he had the chops to lick any climb out there. He says that eventually he moved on from this phase after a certain length of time due to it not being very effective in changing anyone's opinion, and also the realization that what was really important in climbing was what it personally meant for him, and no one else. I know that for a very long time that's precisely what he - and Smith - decided on, and rather than trying to make a name for themselves so to speak, both simply climbed for their personal enjoyment and fulfillment.
I ask, without sarcasm, am I making my points here? Is what I'm saying so far generally clear and understandable? Hopefully what I'm saying reflects that it isn't Smith and Jensen's natural inclination or desire to play the role of the victim. I do know that both have damn well tried to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, without much success. I do know that both eventually moved on from that and began focusing simply on what the experience meant for them as climbers. But seriously, even 30 years later that stigma, that prejudice, that persecution still looms over them both quite heavily within the rock climbing community, as again, can be seen by reviewing the start of this thread.
The advent of the internet has given them an unparalleled chance to get out from under that stigma by informing, educating, and rebutting those who through misinformation and misunderstanding cast them in the role of the villain. Given that opportunity, (and also partially in reaction to the "their silence demonstrates their acknowledgment of guilt" argument) they took it and ran with it, using the start of this very thread as the platform on which to let themselves be heard. And now, they get to face down the whole "why haven't you gotten over it already" thing, which as I said, they both find particularly frustrating.
I would also say that this role has hardly been the big, defining characteristic of their lives. Both have had, to my way of seeing things, incredibly positive, fulfilling, and productive lives. Mark Smith is a highly venerated teacher and family man, and I speak from experience as his former pupil that he has had an incredibly powerful, positive impact on the lives of his students.
Again, I would recommend reviewing a lot of what's been said at the start of this thread, as I think it more adequately addresses the statements in your post. And again, I ask without sarcasm, am I generally making my points here?
Also, Smith, Jensen, if you see this and I'm speaking out of place here anywhere, please, by all means correct me.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
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Someone on here once claimed Jensen and Smith "attacked Jim Beyer" (or something like that) by downgrading Intifada and reporting it wasn't as hard as Beyer claimed, which gives an idea of the mindset some people have when discussing them or their ascents. There are a more than a few posters who are hell-bent on defending the sanctity of the sacred cows of aid climbing and their signature climbs.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
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And again, I ask without sarcasm, am I generally making my points here?
Da_Dweeb, yes you are!
That is a really nicely worded response. Probably kinder than my recent post deserves. You presented a clear statement of their dilemma.
Thanks.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
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Awesome! Glad to hear it. Thanks, Crunch!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
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"I ask, without sarcasm, am I making my points here?"
What point is there in making points?
Your reasonable explanations and logical arguments have no place here in this climbing forum. They will be completely disregarded, and personal insults will soon be hurled at you.
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