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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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Dr F go back to your laboratory and mix some chemicals and create life.
Get to work, your time is short ...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
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Jstan-I heartily welcome yours and GO's proselytising for atheism and fully enjoy hearing your personnel beliefs. I wouldn't have it any other way!! We both must keep our doors open to each others mind, heart and soul! I simply define soul as who we are. We are each unique beings.
I fully agree with all you have said!! Blame much of it on religion? Yes!! What did Jesus have to say about religion? White washed hypocrites. Who were His friends? Beggars and thieves and prostitutes and the blind and homeless and a handful of hard working fishermen. Not to much of a show from the clergy there. Four Gospels. About love and forgiveness and hope. There is no doubt to the fact that he lived and died a brutal death for that very message.
He prophesied of the pathetic state the churches that go by His name would be in before His return. 1.The loveless church 2. The compromising church. 3. The corrupt church. 4. The dead church. 5.The lukewarm church. ("I will spit you out of my mouth") 6. The faithful church 7. The persecuted church.(Revelations 2:1-4:11). Two out of seven past the test, barely. These are real churches here on earth today, that call themselves 'Christian'. He knows who they are.
You are most surely right. It is a choice. You can't buy your way in, work your way in, grandfather your way in. And as I simply attempted to explain, it is about a relationship not a religion.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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I trust that I will learn more about God's ways through pure unadulterated nature than through the words of man with all his agendas.
Every motion of the constantly shifting bodies in the world, is timed to the occasion of some definite, foreordered end. The flowers blossom in obedience to the same law that marks the course of constellations. Nature is one, and to me the greatest delight of observation and study is to discover new unities in this all-embracing and eternal harmony.
Men, with only a book of knowledge have seized upon evolution as an escape from the idea of a GOD. "Evolution!" - a wonderful, mouth-filling word. Just say 'evolution' and you have explained every phenomenon of Nature, and explained away GOD. It sounds big and wise. Evolution, they say, brought the earth through its glacial periods, caused the snow blanket to recede, and the flower carpet to follow it, raised the forests of the world, developed animal life from the jelly-fish to the thinking man.
But what caused evolution? There they stick. To my mind, it is inconceivable that a plan that has worked out the development of beauty, that has made every microscopic particle of matter perform its function in harmony with every other in the universe - that such a plan is the blind product of an unthinking abstraction. No; somewhere, before evolution was, was an Intelligence.
You may call that Intelligence what you please; I cannot see why so many people object to call it GOD. -John Muir
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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JStan - yep, you got it.
Norwegian - damn, dude, you can write! Two words from you say more than I can in a half dozen posts. Of course, it's also possible that you simply have more profound ideas than I do. Either way, kudos!
GO
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:24pm PT
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DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A SCIENCE EXPLANATION, IT ISN'T MEANT TO INFORM YOU ABOUT HOW YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO LIVE. IT IS MOSTLY ABOUT MATTER, AND STAYS STRICTLY PHYSICAL. IT MAKES NO COMMENT ON OTHER PHILOSOPHICAL SYSTEMS. THE CONCLUSIONS REACHED APPLYING THIS TECHNIQUE TO SET TIME SCALES MAY BE AT VARIANCE WITH SOME BELIEF SYSTEMS. THE EXPLAINER IS NOT RESPONSIBLE TO RECONCILE THIS DESCRIPTION OF A PHYSICAL PHENOMENA WITH THOSE BELIEF SYSTEMS WHICH MAY HAVE DIFFICULTY INCORPORATING INFORMATION DERIVED FROM TECHNIQUES UTILIZING THIS PHENOMENA.
Radioisotope dating is used, accurately, to set the time scales of a large number of events in the universe. Different radioisotopes provide different time scales.
Carbon dating looks at the amount of the isotope 14C (carbon nuclei with 6 protons and 8 neutrons) this is an unstable nucleus with a 5730 year half life. That means that starting with some amount of 14C, you have half of it after 5730 years... the stuff that disappears decays to Nitrogen 14 by a beta decay.
14C is made by cosmic ray interactions, and is taken up by plants as they metabolize, so the ratio of 14C to 12C and 13C (both stable) remain constant through the life of the plant. Once the plant dies, the metabolism stops and the 14C decays away. Measuring the ratio of the carbon isotopes in the sample is the method by which a time is associated with that sample.
The accuracy of the date depends on the ability to establish the isotopic ratios, as well as the initial abundance of the carbon isotopes.
Other radioistopes have longer lifetimes and are used to date things back to the putative beginning of the universe.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
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Dr.F- "there was no adam and eve, and the whole story about God and evil and a apple"
Where in Genesis does it say anything about an apple? It is simply described as fruit!!
PEACE!!
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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Ed - interesting, I'd always wondered how the isotope got there in the first place. Thanks for that. And I love your disclaimer! Very funny!
what is this book 1999 you speak of?
It's something navblk has been obsessing about since the beginning of the thread. I think he may have dreamed it up on a bad acid trip. It seems to contain the answers to all topics in some sort of obscure and unknowable way.
GO
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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Fat- "I don't believe in the bibles version of good or evil either, I am evil of my own free will"
That is exactly what the bible says about good and evil. You are held accountable for your own choices. The devil can't make you do anything! He can make a suggestion (thought) which is sometimes the case. More often then not it simply is a result of our own selfish desire. Its our choice (free will). (By the way, Satan is not omnipresent, he can only be in one place at a time. One third of the angels decided to tag along with him, grass greener on the other side of the hill sorta thing I suppose. They do his dirty work so to speak). BTW, I make evil choices, but I prefer to avoid them, they have consequences. No one is perfect here on earth!!
Satan didn't force Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he just suggested that if they did, they would be like God.
They bought the lie...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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Dr F- About the apple... just keeping it real.
Earlier it was Norton and the "Tree of Knowledge" explained that it was simply designated as the "tree of knowledge of good and evil"
Norton was inferring that God was with holding the ability to gain general knowledge/wisdom/learning etc.(in case Adam and Eve wanted to move up in life, get a better job down the road type of knowledge. In which case I would tend to agree IE. inflation!!!) He wasn't. It was a specific type of knowledge, see my earlier post.
Just keeping it real...but personally I think it could of been a Washington apple on account of that's were I was born (Seattle) and Washington apples are bad ass. Stole a couple bitd. PEACE!!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
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Dr.F- You seem to assume allot of things. For instance there is absolutely nothing organized about me. Don't belong to an organization, church, religion, system etc. I just happen to have a relationship/friend who just so happened to create the universe!!! I know this irritates you but I would be lying to you if I told you anything contrary to this. And I respect you, and love Him to much to do that.
Couldn't organize myself out of a wet paper bag...unless it was filled with fresh Washington apples.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 21, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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You know Dr. F, even Satan himself and his Fallen Angels know there is a God and know who the Son of God is and tremble in his presence. Read the Bible. They know. Many stories in the Bible and the book of Enoch say so.
Go talk to and interview a Satanist into the Occult. They believe and worship Satan himself! Yet, they know there is a God and they know there is a Son of God. They know the existance of their enemy. They just happened to pick the wrong side. The losing side. Several incredible stories of people being rescued and coming to know God out of the occult practices have said so, and have published their tragic stories that ultimately resulted in them coming to personally know God and leaving the Occult World behind. Which is a very sick and scary world . . .
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 06:29pm PT
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Dr.F-" Do you talk to God?"
Prayer. That is how I talk to God. Jesus gave us a good example/instruction on how to pray with the "Our Father whom art in Heaven"...should you ever desire to do so. But more often I just say whatever happens to be on my heart, such as "Dear Lord please bless Dr.F and his family today in a very special way, I ask this in Jesus name amen".
"do you not believe that evolution is a fact, and the creation story a myth?"
I believe that evolution is a theory. Period. No less no more.
I believe the creation story is true. !00%
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 21, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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Klimmer, of course Satanists believe in God. Their whole schtick is being reprobates. They are deluded too.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 06:36pm PT
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Of course the Satanists are as whacked as any fundamentalist Christians--just possibly more dangerous. Maybe. Maybe not.
The Garden of Eden thing functions as a great metaphor, however, for all sorts of things. Actually, it contains the archtypal element of the "one forbidden thing" (think Pandora's box, too), so it stands for the general idea of temptation that we all face and the possible negative cosequences should be yield to it. Literal truth? Hogwash. Poetic truth to the condition of man and woman? Absolutely.
Interestingly, there is ANOTHER tree in the garden that God wanted to really keep the hungry wench and her flunky from gnawing on: The tree of eternal life. You got good and evil, and you got eterneral life? Then we're talking God-like! So the system is that we come to be like God by passing throught the "tree" of the crucifix. In fact, some Christian imagery depicts the crucifix hanging in a tree. Pretty cool symmetry there.
The problem for me in all of this is when folks like Klimmer take it AS LITERAL TRUTH, which is pattenly obsurd.
I like the way Joseph Campbell put it (paraphrased): He who reads a poem for its historical and scientific knowledge is missing the point.
Religious texts are POETRY, and should be read as such, usually after a few glasses of wine and a healthy platter of scepticism.
Anyone read Twain's story about Adam and Eve? Freakin' classic.
BAd
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 21, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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All I can say after so much circular arguements and good thoughtful discussions and no one has moved from their original positions (perhaps someone has been moved spiritually and we don't know about it?). . . is . . . well . . .
We will all ultimately know one day.
Whether you think so or not -- you will.
Amen. And Amen.
By the way, there is Theistic Evolution. I happen to believe it was a combination of both. Creation and Evolution. God doesn't leave evidence behind to confound us. The geological record is very readable and absolute. Science has to move toward God, and those who believe in God also have to move toward Science. However, believing in Science as powerful as a tool that it is, will not save you. Only Jesus Christ can do that.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 21, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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We are Gods dream, matter is fact, fact of the matter!
But this is backwords, we became real and God became are dream!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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Dr F --Sorry to break the news, but evolution is not just a theory
It is a Natural LAW, just like the law of gravity
Yes that is absolutely true.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
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It is a Natural LAW, just like the law of gravity
You want to explain gravity to me? Where does it come from? What "causes" gravity?
Gracias,
gm
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
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Locker,
Quantumfy your answer.
Best,
gm
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
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I sort of lost track of this because of work, but I just read this from Craig: "you are just trying to explain something that you think is there, since it should be there, all the ancients, and spiritual people say its there. But maybe it isn't there."
It isn't there, Craig, because there's no "it." And no matter how many times I say it, and no matter how, you doods still come back with a version of, ". . . you are just trying to explain something that you THINK is there..." How plainly can I say it: I'm NOT talking about a THOUGHT or a mental construct, nor yet a feeling.
Later Craig said: "But after it all, I can say I was duped by it, what I may have felt was God, was not. And now, I have to question everyone else that say they feel God, could they be duped as well."
I'd have to totally agree if your experience of "God" was hooked to a feeling.
If God is neither a thought or a feeling, what is left?
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Moving on, the study of gravity is particularly interesting, especially the new Tensor-vector-scalar gravity, developed by Jacob Bekenstein.
Not surprisingly, the only way he can make the new theory (or wrinkle on a new theory) work is by introducing "an arbitrary dimensionless function."
The math is way out there but this stuff is super fascinating.
Attempts to isolate gravity as a "thing" are pretty awkward.
JL
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