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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 11, 2008 - 10:17am PT
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Dirty Kenny Wrote: Further, rap bolting on those big routes is not an "experience" its an installation job. Eight pitches up the arch? thats an experience.
So how many big routes have you rap-bolted to know what kind of experience they are??
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Apr 11, 2008 - 01:24pm PT
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jstan
climber
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Apr 11, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
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This I have to follow!
For all of the intelligence we humans claim we have, we sometimes fail to use it.
Consider. Go back to 1860. If the slave owners had simply said, "OK. Next Monday
we will free all the slaves. You have got what you say you want. Now leave us alone."
They then could have gone on and held the slaves in economic slavery for the next
100 years, just as they in fact ended up doing. The Civil war was not necessary. Why
did it happen? To put it in economic terms slave owners did not recognize "The
Market" had topped as regards slavery and they stood pat. And to manage their own
perception and the perceptions of the people they wanted to go out and shoot guns
for them, they generated all manner of arguments, reasons, and emotions. Now it
takes a long time for some things to happen. Like this thirty year long argument
about climbing.
Climbers love the sense of absolute freedom. Duh, who wouldn't. The idea has been
so attractive we now mantel up on ledges to find it smells up there and all the holds,
along with many that are not holds, are decorated in white. "The Market" on
absolute freedom has topped. So it is we go on pushing arguments around on the
chess board while carefully not looking at the elephant in the room.
Personally, paying a high price for my mistakes does not bother me half so much as
does the realization as I hand over the money, that if I had just taken the time to
think, I might have seen it all coming.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Apr 11, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
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Bob, the answer to your question is absolutely zero. I would have never considered it. Yourself? Do you agree with what I said above? The number of quality big new lines in the park would be substantially less today had climbers practiced your "anything goes" mentality.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 11, 2008 - 03:34pm PT
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Kenny....No I don't agree and just about anything has been done in the Park. Chipped holds, bolts ladder, rap-placed bolts, creative use of pitons, chopped trees and so on...the Valley has seen it all!
It is way to much work and time commitment for 99-per-cent of climbers.
They much rather just climb.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 11, 2008 - 04:59pm PT
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It finally hit me, why this thread has gotten so much action.
It's not just that Growing Up is on a big wall, or that it is on Half Dome.
It's not because Growing Up is next to Southern Belle. The interest
is because Growing Up is such an outstanding line. It follows a striking
feature that splits one of the most outstanding walls in one of the world's
most outstanding climbing areas. Simply put, Growing Up is a line that
every climber wishes they had the chance to put up. We all want to
experience the FA of that line.
Other rap-bolted lines don't get the brew-ha-ha because they are not the
absolute gorgeous line that is Growing Up.
~~~
A thought experiment.
Imagine, if you will, the route Growing Up. It is exactly as it stands today,
all the belays, bolts, ladders. Everything. The only difference, for this
experiment, is that the route was established in complete ground-up
style. Never mind how the bolts got in, just visualize the route.
Take twenty seconds to explore the route in your mind before
continuing with the experiment.
...
...
...
...
OK. Now, imagine that the route exists, same location, except that it
was put in ground up using the tools that are available to us climbers
today. For this part of the experiment, pretend that no shenanigans
were employed on the FA, no bat-hooks, no retro-bolting of run outs.
The bolts exist only where stance or hook drilling allows.
Take another twenty seconds to envision this route.
...
...
...
Certainly, both routes are figments of the imagination, and that's why
this is a "thought experiment."
Of course, the difference between the two routes is that the first has
sparse, but reasonably spaced bolts, while the second is a route with long,
dangerous run outs. (Note that I can surmise this only from the descriptions
given to us of the route.)
Given this, what are your feelings on the two imagined routes? Does one
appeal to you more than the other, or are they equal because the same
style was used to create each one.
OK, take another twenty seconds to decompress. Now return to reality. [Snap!]
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Apr 11, 2008 - 05:06pm PT
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Of course you don't agree Bob-
BTW thanks for the history lesson
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 11, 2008 - 05:08pm PT
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Thanks, k-man,
My imagination just got sweaty palms.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 11, 2008 - 05:08pm PT
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The route is in/up--time for the funometer to begin registering.
The future is what this discussion needs to focus on, and how climbers can best judge themselves for the best (read: most popular) outcome without becoming bigger blips on the "Man's" radar screen.
Or not.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 11, 2008 - 05:15pm PT
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Kenny wrote: Of course you don't agree Bob-
BTW thanks for the history lesson
Sorry if I came off terse...I really don't think it would have made that big of difference.
People said the same thing about the routes I posted in RMNP...still a lot of unclimbed rock if people are willing to put the effort in.
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Apr 11, 2008 - 05:19pm PT
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pathetic.
more than one trail to the base of the climb does more ecological damage than all the bolts in the valley put together.
sounds like a great line, put up so that those than follow can also do it safely. Nice.
That ethic goes back to an older ethic than trad, which was that the leader, or the first ascensionists, were responsible for those that followed.
for those that don't get it, The Kid, in the meadows would be the opposite, a bolt at the top and the bottom, not for safety, but to mark the route, injury bait for the climber maxed at the grade of the climb.
If, and I do mean if, you are interested in the ecosystem, then be concerned about litter, or multiple trails precipitating accelerated mass wasting, soil compaction, vegetation trampling, and don't even worry about bolts, or admit your concern is not about ecology, but about ego, or your way is the right way.
Bob Kamps was so concerned about enforcing his will on others, he petitioned the Park Service to begin to reguilate climbing... what a mistake. At least, after being confronted on the subject, Bob admitted he was not concerned about the desert, he was concerned about regulating bolts.
Kind of nice to know nothing has changed.
Ed
Ed
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 11, 2008 - 05:55pm PT
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Hey Sean, long time no see. Funny it takes you getting slandered on the intardnet for doing what you love, climbing hard and putting in new routes for us to re-connect. Whatever, another proud accomplishment in a life full of them. Let the armchair pundits spew their spray, you were out there climbing that day!
Congrats on the kid, I got one too, they'll change your life huh?
In case you haven't figured it out yet, remember that pyscho m0therfvcking aryan hitchhiker freek at the overflow campground in blue diamond? Or how about the little brown? heh. You probably remember the days taking whippers on shitty bolts in shitty vegas sandstone tho.
email me at grind stone graphics A T g mail D 0 T c o m (take out all those spaces) and i'll give you my 800#, we should catch up.
Your friend,
Pasha
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Apr 11, 2008 - 06:14pm PT
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I suppose we'd have to reassemble Bob’s ashes to get his response, but knowing him pretty well over the years, I'd say his motivation in the JT campaign against motorized bolting was not enforcing his will on others, as suggested in this post quote:
"Bob Kamps was so concerned about enforcing his will on others, he petitioned the Park Service to begin to regulate climbing... "
On the point of Park Service regulation, does anyone know if officials are inquiring or rumbling about this route? More generally, have they shown any recent concern for rap bolting in the Park? The regulatory "Pandora’s box," as I dubbed it a piece on my web site, certainly has creaked open around bolting, especially when the issue gains visibility for whatever reason(s).
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 11, 2008 - 06:19pm PT
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NEWS FLASH
Scott Cosgrove, who kicked off this thread, does have a legitimate beef that has nothing to do with rap bolting. (Rather, it's in addition to how he feels about rap bolting.) It relates directly to me. I blew it completely.
Scott Cosgrove, please accept my full apology.
Scott just wrote a letter to the editor to Rock & Ice. I just now finished writing a response and offering him my apology, and I want to share it here because it's relevant and it matters.
My mistake was leaving out of the article the fact that Scott made the FFA of Southern Belle with Dave Schultz in 1988. I didn't even mention that Schultz and Walt Shipley's FA included a small but significant stretch of aid up a crack on the fourth pitch, let alone that Schultz returned with Scott two years later to make the FFA. The details of their FFA are upthread, along with a cool photo of Scott leading the overhanging off-hands splitter on pitch #3.
You can read Scott's full letter when Rock & Ice comes out, but I want to share a couple of interesting facts he mentions. I think we're talking about pitch #8 now. (Still not certain, and he doesn't identify it by number.) Not the hardest pitch, which was the 5.12d that Scott freed on pitch #4. No, but the pitch we're talking about is the business, the scariest of the X-rated pitches. It was called 5.11d by the FA and FFA parties, but Leo Houlding, who led it while making the second free ascent with Dean Potter, apparently called it 5.12a. According to Scott, Leo said it was "a life changing experience."
Scott led that pitch on the FFA. He says that Schultz didn't want to lead it again. And Scott says of it, "I came closer to being in a altered state of fear..."
My palms are sweating again.
I don't know how I could have left out of the history of the South Face such a pivotal event as the FFA. It was completely inadvertent, a mistake and a big one.
Scott calls Southern Belle "one of the most serious free climbs in the world." Boy did he get that right. I completely agree. It is still, 20 years later, the only free route that goes all the way up the heart of the South Face, its tallest central section and one of the steepest.
I still consider Southern Belle the proudest line on the South Face. Congratulation, you guys. Hats off. You bad!
And I am terribly sorry I inadvertently left you out of the article.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 11, 2008 - 07:32pm PT
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The coveted Post 1265! whoo-hoo!!
Here's some pics from way back when of the Harding route, that Doug references my quote about the South Face being quite freeable:
I suppose I should weigh in, having some experience and record on the SF (FA of Autobahn, flashing the crux 5.11+/5.12a pitch on lead; famous attempt on Harding Route; FA of Deuceldike), but it seems like its the same old, rehashed once again. I'm kind of amazed there's even a debate anymore. At least the top-down style is not being justified as the selfless, "community service"--that always seemed a bogus argument to me.
Coz, nothing will ever change yours, Walt's, and Shultz's experience on the South Face. The whole wall could fall down and crumble, and your incredible adventure up there would remain.
I suppose I should make a confession, too. Bachar had entrusted me with a secret, he had picked out the line of Southern Belle far before Shultz, Coz, or Walt had ever seen it. I think he had even worked on the intial 5.12 overhanging thin hands pitch. It was pretty clear that the climb was a future testpiece. I was able to keep Bachar's secret for a year or so, but eventually, probably at some boozing session at the Deli, I let the cat out of the bag, and the boyz were on it soon after.
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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Apr 11, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
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So...Deucy...you're saying this is ALL YOUR FAULT?????
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 11, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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nah, last I heard The South Face of Half Dome was the sole domain of....
RICK JAMES BITCH!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 11, 2008 - 08:10pm PT
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Coz, if it were a democracy, you know I'd be there, voting with ya.
But it may be like 2000, we might win the popular vote, but lose the future.
I think your plea for a bastion of purity is valid, of course, but I think the real issue is about land managers and their reaction to excessive construction work on the walls of Yosemite.
It's a new world, with new means of expression. If (perhaps a big "if") routes like Growing Up are done in moderation, and no repercussions from land managers arise as a consequence, then who's really to say that it shouldn't be done?
'cept for Rick James, of course...
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 11, 2008 - 09:09pm PT
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Then again, Coz, perhaps you have something there. In Britain, of course, there is a mutually respected division of regions acceptable/not acceptable for top-down climbing and bolts. Why not here?
Perhaps the South Face Half Dome is already in the "Top Down" category by recent precedent. Perhaps some of the other walls could be negotiated as the "Bastions of Bottom Up" (BoBu) for the future generations?
Or not. This is the land of Wal-Mart and conveinience, after all.
Interestingly, Bachar, the visionary that he is, tried to create a mutually agreed upon compromise way back in the 80's:
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