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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 14, 2016 - 05:46pm PT
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It’s not quite that simple
Of course not. But your comment seemed to exclude the situation I described.
viz., a body is a necessary element in the most basic cognitive processes
I.e.,
The most basic cognitive processes ⇒ the existence of a (functional) body.
But I'm being picky.
Thanx for the math reference. I'm reading it now.
;>)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 14, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
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MH2: Sure enough, the brain is in a body, the body may be in a house, the house may be on a street, on the street there may be a gas station, and over there somewhere is Morocco. But neuroscience doesn't require final and complete knowledge of everything in order to ask and answer questions about how the nervous system functions.
Again, it's not quite that simple.
The nervous system does not exist de novo, independently, alone, without conditions and circumstances that fall outside of what you think it is. It is simply a part of an infinite set of systems that can only be properly understood as a single unit. Even the word "unit" is misleading since it implies that there are boundaries and edges. From what I see, there is none of that. It is not a thing.
If neuroscience doesn't ask the question, then it is misguided. It cannot stand alone. Nothing can.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 14, 2016 - 08:09pm PT
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I've just finished a review of Where Mathematics Comes From. It appeared in the AMS Notices and was written by James Madden. And it was not very flattering. The notion of a metaphor as inspiration for mathematical discovery is intriguing, but apparently in this work the authors too frequently offer something like the following:
"In abstract algebra the relation-ship of an abstract structure
(e.g., a group) to a model of that structure (a group of rotations) is an example of a metaphor."
In other words, the very common practice in mathematics of looking at examples and models of mathematical objects in order to further investigations into the natures of those objects is called "using metaphors."
Infinite sequences are approached from the standpoint of finite sequences, even though there can be dramatic differences. Once again, the "metaphor" is nothing more than a watered down version of the subject, if not necessarily an example. I'm surprised that the notable mathematicians who advised on the book (at Berkeley) didn't discourage this rather pathetic interpretation of "metaphor."
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Nov 14, 2016 - 09:16pm PT
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It is not a thing.
What is a thing?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 14, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
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an inanimate material object as distinct from a living sentient being
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 15, 2016 - 05:54am PT
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Jgill: I'm surprised that the notable mathematicians who advised on the book (at Berkeley) didn't discourage this rather pathetic interpretation of "metaphor."
And your assessment is not surprising, either.
Yeah, they must be stupid mathematicians. Berkeley. Pffftttttt!
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Nov 15, 2016 - 09:15am PT
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This thread is a fractal. Perfect representation of ___
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 15, 2016 - 09:17am PT
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This thread is a fractal. Perfect representation of ___
Mental speculators in action masquerading as authoritative .......
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 15, 2016 - 09:31am PT
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Yes ... 100%
But you can't agree with me because you ultimately can't see the real absolute reason this holds true.
back to your corner rascal .......
:-)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Nov 15, 2016 - 09:43am PT
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an inanimate material object as distinct from a living sentient being
So everything is not a thing.
But what about every thing?
Are there any parts of living sentient beings that are things?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 15, 2016 - 09:58am PT
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Are there any parts of living sentient beings that are things?
That has to be a trick question. The first "thing" that comes to mind is that thing that has an awkward time being named. Kind of ironic.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Nov 15, 2016 - 03:22pm PT
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That has to be a trick question.
Motivated by curiosity. We are told that a living sentient being is not a thing. But is the water inside the living sentient being a thing? How well can this living sentience be located? Or would the attempt chase away the unicorns and rainbows?
Another thing: The Living Sentient Being From Another World does not have the same effect as
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 15, 2016 - 03:49pm PT
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OK, I had no idea that "metaphor" could have so many interpretations. In Wiki the article on "Conceptual Metaphors" does indeed include the example I cited previously.
"The principle of unidirectionality states that the metaphorical process typically goes from the more concrete to the more abstract, and not the other way around. Accordingly, abstract concepts are understood in terms of prototype concrete processes." (Wiki)
And guess what? Lakoff and colleagues have championed if not created this interpretation. So, if I am speaking of Trips John takes, I may link John drives to Denver, thus metaphorically illuminating the larger category. Or not.
For me, a metaphor is defined in what I suspect is a traditional way as "a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable" (Wiki)
For example, John drives to Denver, weaving in and out of traffic.
Our resident expert, Sycorax, needs to chime in and offer direction.
This thread is a fractal
Not even close.
And your assessment is not surprising, either. Yeah, they must be stupid mathematicians. Berkeley. Pffftttttt!
Has nothing to do with being "stupid mathematicians". Your comment, not mine.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 15, 2016 - 08:25pm PT
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. . . the gross materialists never vibrate the transcendental vibrations to benefit all living entities
This just about says it all. The mind on vacation.
Nevertheless, I agree wholeheartedly.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Nov 15, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
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^and your hungry aren't you
Not even close.
It does go it circles my friend
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Nov 15, 2016 - 09:59pm PT
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You know!
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 15, 2016 - 10:04pm PT
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If Dr Ed ever returns he might discuss the use of metaphors in physics, in the discovery process as well as the instructional arena. Are Einstein's thought experiments metaphorical?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 15, 2016 - 11:39pm PT
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thought experiments are just that...
for the types of things discussed above, we used to call them analogies
not sure when metaphor was appropriated to describe everything (and even nothing, apparently)
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Nov 16, 2016 - 07:20am PT
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*Large O ? What are you working on?*
*Have you read the Prow Trip Report?*
*Maybe it deserves your attention ?*
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Disabled-Is-a-Stupid-Word-Up-and-Down-The-Prow-Slowly/t13081n.html#comments
THIS COULD BE A BIG DEAL , At least help get it into the hands of producers at Hallmark?
Ronny Howard? You are the professional with Holleeewierd Conections . . . .
"Disabled" Is a Stupid Word: Up and Down The Prow, Slowly
by notdisabled
Sunday November 13, 2016 11:10am
I’m a flatlander and a vegetable farmer, and for years life had been moving away from climbing. My wife and I have a farm in Nebraska, we’ve got three young daughters, and we don’t have a lot of disposable income so regular climbing trips haven’t been in the money or energy budget. Since leaving the mountain west in 2010, I got my vertical kicks as an arborist, but even that was tapering.
Then I got rear-ended on January 7th, 2014 and found myself in a Lincoln, NE rehabilitation hospital paralyzed from the waist down. “Time to start climbing again,” I figured…well, not quite. But after a therapist heard I was a climber she gave me Mark Wellman’s book “Climbing Back,” about the first paraplegic ascent of El Cap in 1989, I started thinking a lot more about climbing.
Fast-forward 3 years and I’ve been to the Valley 4 times and finally got a wall done last month.
I am fortunate to have an “incomplete” spinal cord injury, and more fortunate still to have significant recovery of leg function, so I differ from other adaptive climbers like Mark Wellman and Sean O’Neill. While I have the same level of spinal cord injury as those two beasts, my less-severe injury allows me to stand and walk with crutches. Unfortunately, I’m not terribly time or energy efficient on my feet so use a wheelchair most of the time. I feel like walking for me would be like able-bodied folks jogging backwards all the time – you could probably do it, but what’s the point?
On the other hand, my limited leg function has allowed me to really push the limits of adaptive climbing and on this recent trip I led and hauled three pitches on The Prow, as well as cleaning the remaining 8 pitches that I seconded. I was stoked to be able to contribute as a nearly full partner, and glad I didn’t have to carry the haul bags on the approach or descent! Best of both worlds ;-) * COM'ON NOW!* |
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