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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Jul 23, 2011 - 12:58am PT
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But to me, this isn't a story about a piece of rock, it's a story about people - Mark and Richard. And this is the evidence that I have examined backwards, forwards, and sideways. This is the second kind of evidence - a sort of legal-historical proof. I can't walk up to the base of El Cap and prove to you that Abraham Lincoln wrote the Gettysburgh Address, or that Nero really was the emporor of Rome. I need to perform a different kind of proof for that.
The evidence that I have examined suggests extremely strongly that Mark and Richard have told the truth. I have found no evidence that they haven't. This is the second form of evidence, the legal-historical kind. This is "my" evidence.
. . .
you and Kait could tell me the story over the phone, I could type it out as you speak, email it back to you, you could correct it, we could edit it, back and forth, finally back to you, then you could submit as yours. I feel bad about what happened, and would gladly do what I can to help.
Yes! I suggest that you also be credited as a member of the second-ascent party. You have put so much of your soul into this that you really need to be given ample recognition now that someone or other has climbed the thing.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 23, 2011 - 12:58am PT
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"Yes! I suggest that you also be credited as a member of the second-ascent party."
Bollocks! Have you been drinking???? [hope so, it's Friday night] The only recognition I seek is the recognition that Mark Smith and Richard Jensen are not the villains and scoundrels they have been made out to be.
As for the movie, I want Steve Buscemi to play me. I'll loan him my cheat stick and everything.
But who will they cast in the part of Mimi?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jul 23, 2011 - 01:20am PT
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I'd like to hear from fresh voices with fresh perspectives and fresh information
Or not. This might have been important to a few people three decades ago, but it really doesn't signify much today. As KLK pointed out, Yosemite Valley was no longer the center of the climbing universe when this all happened, and to invest anything more than casual interest in it now is... well... odd. To say the least.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 23, 2011 - 01:27am PT
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The pendulum swings left and right crossing the center.
When it's all over you'll be back in the center.
Unless you're stupid ...... :-)
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 23, 2011 - 01:35am PT
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I really liked reading Ed Viesturs and David Roberts book on K2. I think that style would work best - commentary on the events by Pete, first hand accounts from Richard/Mark and Kait/Ammon.
Facts are facts, Ammon and Kait know what they came across and how they felt, but anyone that has studied history knows that the telling is often the most important part of it.
Just my .02, I am a complete bum and can't climb for sh!t, but I find this story fascinating and a good study in sociology. Probably lots of other people do to, or so the ~3000 posts tell me.
Pete seems like a nice guy, and I met Ammon on the approach to the captain once, dude was humping loads like 5 beers in... animal LOL
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Jul 23, 2011 - 01:48am PT
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WOW!!!
A film? That would rule! And to think I was hoping for a few photos...
Personally, I can think of nothing better than a collaboration between Pete, the first ascent team, the second ascent team, and anyone else involved in any way (including detractors!)...putting together the ultimate detailed story (film?) of the WOS route!
That would be AWESOME!!!
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Jul 23, 2011 - 01:54am PT
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Aw, heck...
Pete and the second ascent team would be just fine...
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:01am PT
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I don't understand what the big deal is? This route is only 12 inches long on my el cap poster.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:04am PT
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you know, in my day, i have ben called more than once on some BS-
and i may at times be guilty as charged-
but this much is true for sure-
you cannot BS a BS'er!
so...
really pedro?
you NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED that you'd ever write about WOS after it had a 2nd?
what's the line?
oh right-
"bwa-haha...bwa-haha", or sumsuch.
1) lets look back at just the last few pages of posts here and see how many times you comment on your VAST amount of personal research, so that was all just just for the sake of your own curiosity then? or perhaps to write really well footnoted posts on stupidtopo?
2) lets look back at your life (or your life online anyway) and see if there was ever anything you THOUGHT you knew about that you actually DIDN'T write about, somewhere, at some time...
3) let's look back at your posts on the topic and see if it's a hard case to make that you'd LOVE to "clear mark and richard's good names", as it were- and how would you do so without writing about it?
4) love to see someone look back and pick out all the very specific questions you were sending in this thread at kait's mom, and see just exactly when you were asking for which specifics, and to know at the same time exactly when she had rcvd that email that you were writing it up for a check...
5) say- i sure wonder if you can get dwayne to come post up here and state for the record that your future article and that so-called "press release" was entirely his idea? cause i am gonna hafta call...
yeah.
you guessed it!
b u l l s h i t
on that story
(or all those stories)
as for your apology to K+A, it matters little what i think of it, but on 1st read, my take was that you are less sorry than interested in latching on and profiting from their experience.
(what, they cannot type? they need your editing, or your influence n their tale? for what exactly???)
side bar?
"SIDE BAR?"
seriously?
you have no article, no story, not without the SA.
nada
heck if you did, you'd have written it long ago rather than argue about it endlessly online,
klk tried to say that (as i have long suggested too) "context matters" here.
this all happened in a place and time that we are not currently in, so we naturally see things differently, and that matters... and while posters since seem to find those posts by klk interesting, i don't see anyone getting that point entirely- you just simply cannot go back 3 decades in time, and you cannot renderany meaningful judgement n 2011, you JUST CAN'T.
the die has been cast
the game is over
the cookie has crumbled
the sun has set
the deal is sealed
and frankly, i thought klk did a fairly even minded and level headed job of saying just that- what happened happened. nobody really argues they were treated fairly, but still, those that treated them in a certain way did so because, well, because they had a huge LOVE for the mountain, not because they had a hatred for outsiders. the defacto culture was there to protect finite resources, not to make doods kiss up to jim bridwell.
as for dave turner, he went on that FA trip to pattagucci on (at least partially) an AAC grant (thank you very much), and one well deserved because he had proven himself extensively on hard aid solos, again and again and again, and in a little quarry called YV. comparing the WoS guys to him is almost as stupid as comparing them to harding.
lastly, as far as just coming clean with your own self, your own story, your own interests in the whole WoS world (as a poster or two upthread has suggested you should try to do more often):
why are you lately ignoring the once prominent issue you'd write about, richard's and mark's deep christian faith? isn't it true that your shared faith is the roriginal motivator for you in this story? lots of climbers and lots of non climbers have been wronged or slandered or treated unfairly in life, but you got on the WoS bandwagon (or perhaps created it yourself?) after your being born again, which i believe was not that long after all the explosive (and prominent, and quite public) accusations toward you and your treatment of or behavior toward under aged girls online.
(right?)
i mean, whether or not any of that stuff about you and young (really young) girls was true (i won't even go there in this post)...
IT IS AT LEAST UNDENIABLE, AND NOT IN ANY WAY AN ATTACK ON YOU to simply say that you were cast out from rockclimbing.com after having held court over there for like a decade, posting leagues of "your" beta, only to loose access to those writings, and to find yourself unwelcome there in general.
(right?)
that's no attack, it's just history, wouldn't you concur?
even though i guess some people reading this thread now might not have been climbing that long, or might not have been reading climbing forums long enough to know it.
(right?)
so that just happened- what- like 7 yrs ago? 8 yrs ago?
(be honest pedro, come on now, i bet you know damn well what year it was, dontchya?)
and that was pretty much when you started writing your stuff on ST, right?
so i have always thought wrt WoS that you were really likely to be identifying with richard and mark in their WoS drama because you were, for all to see also "ridden out of town on a rail", weren't you? and you also would like to have those very dark, very public stains upon you washed away by time, right?
so why does it matter?
and why am i bothering to post all that?
because you made your conclusions on WoS long ago, and you have been "fixing the facts around the case" for years, and it's just plain bullshit to say it's any different.
whether or not your conclusions on anything happen to be true, if they are, it's a mere coincidence, since you reached them on faith alone, or at least before you had any evidence to base them on, so whatever you may have gathered, you gathered in support of your own impressions and opinions, just as you did in the "press release" in R&I, where you pushed your agenda without any actual "evidence" (your word, again).
you are, and have long been, highly motivated to wipe away the stains on richard and mark from their WoS days. you are, and have long been, highly motivated to try and clear their names in some way, if at all possible. but what you are doing is so transparently soiled by your own flawed character that you cannot even just walk in one straight line.
TKings.. alluded above that it seemed unlikely you had no idea who'd written that passage, the passage you brought up as significant but then claimed not to know the author of-
so to go one step further, i am calling BS, you are just not wanting to say so, andyou were wanting it to look like someone else was pointing at grossman, and not you (which is not only transparent but also just dumb, cause who cares anyway?)
and then to ammon and kait, you are ACTUALLY trying to say that you were never gonna write somtehing up? and then wham, your editor just came out of the blue suggested it all to you?
just like that? well sh#t pete, what a freakin coincidence man! i mean here you are, by your own account in this thread, "a pretty damn good writer", and here you have been doing all these mounds of personal research on your own time, just out of sheer curiosity, and here you used to write for some mag but got cancelled, and low and behold... wow, you must have the big guy in the sky lookin out for you, eh?
...and i suppose next you are gonna try to act the part of some slicked back hair insurance salesman and try to sell us on the idea that whatever YOU conclusions are on the "controversial route", the "side bar" SA, and the "people story" that surrounds it all, folks of all stripes should just accept those conclusions, YOUR conclusions, despite your OBVIOUS slant on this topic, as somehow valid, or as being based in some way upon... "EVIDENCE"...???
i'll tell you what, maybe there is such a thing as intelligent design after all!
(hey look at that, i turned this into a funny post with a punchline at the end!!! =)
cheers,
-matt
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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:10am PT
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Game over, night night.
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:12am PT
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What a Blast!!!
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:19am PT
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oh jeez.
face ... meet palm.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:44am PT
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the faith itself is not the point-
one point is that he's a driven advocate trying to paint hizself a historian, and the other is that he's kinda generally a sleaze and has been so for a long long time. even now when trying to clear his friends' historical skidz up, he is just full of it in all sorts of ways, and it smells like poop
(poop from a bull, to be specific)
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:48am PT
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Are Matt and Base1361 the same person?
From an earlier post by Prod...and I'm wondering the same thing!
Pete, it would be fascinating to hear your take on these guys (this guy?)...
Lots of hate posts...wtf???
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:52am PT
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Part of me wonders, is Matt the new Richard Jensen?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jul 23, 2011 - 02:59am PT
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you can spew all the conjecture you like, but funny that none of you spewing post under your own name, as i do.
i got nothin to hide, and unlike most, i am crystal clear about my intentions.
once a * always a *, and perhaps i just am like an elephant, as much as some *** might wanna reinvent hizself after people tend to move on or forget, or just don't care anymore.
***'s are dangerous, and it cannot be fixed, not even by HIM.
keep your daughter's close kiddos!
so, just consider me like the internet's little reminder
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bmacd
Social climber
100% Canadian
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Jul 23, 2011 - 03:03am PT
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whats going on did someone get tasered ? I haven't been watching the ST soaps much at all lately.
12 inches ? 300 hook moves in 12 inches ? Huh ??
I suppose I better read the whole thread …..
Congrats to the Pirate and Kate !!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 23, 2011 - 03:14am PT
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Good point, Matt. My name is Jeff Schulze, nice to meet you. Would you like a hug? Because we have known each other off and on for like three years, so...
*Hugs Matt*
We'll get it all figured out between us all at some point, yeah? =)
Edit: Oh, and the only intent that I have that I want to be crystal clear on, is that Mark Smith is a damn good person, who I am proud and grateful to have had as part of my life for so long, even if he is a f*#&ing dork.
Beyond that, I would very much like to see him and Jensen exonerated, but honestly, that would be icing on the cake.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jul 23, 2011 - 03:19am PT
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dood-
you know that's what they also point to when they talk about curing gay people of being gay people- i say that's just innate, as is the other thing.
so perhaps you are not exactly wrong, it just maybe that the issue is not in the heart after all...
edit-
if you say so jeff. your name does not stir anything loose, forgive me.
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tonesfrommars
Trad climber
California
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Jul 23, 2011 - 03:34am PT
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HOLY FUKC, this is the MOBY DICK of threads!!!
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