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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Oct 30, 2016 - 08:14pm PT
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That's better. Now we are not talking about the material footprint believed to be associated to mind.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 30, 2016 - 08:20pm PT
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John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Oct 30, 2016 - 09:16pm PT
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Speaking of mental states (like open awareness), it remains an open question whether a person under a hypnotic spell will obey an order that conflicts with their moral code.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Oct 31, 2016 - 07:53am PT
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Jgill:
Hmmm, you might try this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/magazine/26zen-t.html from 2009’s New York Times Magazine.
I’m sorry to say that I don’t think there are answers to these questions. Just various narratives, theories, and viewpoints. I don’t think there can be answers, either. Things are just too complicated for us to understand what appears to be a great intelligence (call it what you will, even “evolution”) underlying everything. Go figure.
I think you have to play with everything, and I mean “play” as in being “playful.” Play until what you’re doing is no longer play. Then put that down and go on to playing with something else.
We are, I’d say, something akin to a “strange attractor.” Weird things are being drawn to us all the time. What a strange life we all find ourselves in. Our reality is the ultimate Rorschach Test. What you believe you see is what you are predisposed to see. But there’s really nothing solid or meaningful here / there. It just looks like it.
Hope you enjoy this article. It provided more questions than answers when I stumbled across it. I guess that’s how I like things.
I think most every really good psychoanalyst that I came in contact with over the years were all shamans.
I also think there can hardly be anything more rewarding and fulfilling than work . . . just plain work. It’s something one can sink his or her soul into.
Be well.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Oct 31, 2016 - 07:56am PT
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What is "Work?"
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 31, 2016 - 07:59am PT
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Bottom line.
Mind is never unconscious, never.
Once the gross materialist mental speculators actually understand consciousness itself then they can really move forward.
Until then they will remain ultimately clueless.
That is your "work" to do ........
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Oct 31, 2016 - 08:10am PT
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Jgill:
BTW, I have heard that exorcism *has worked* with folks diagnosed with MPD, but I’ve heard that those folks tended to fit within more primitive, dogma-and-creed points of views. We live in a more pluralistic society, so a traditional shaman or exorcist might be more akin to a psychologist or psychotherapist these days. What used to be demons and spirits stealing our souls in olden times have been replaced by alienation, anomie, estrangement, depression, hysteria, etc. in today’s modern times.
We can thank Marx, Veblen, Weber, even Nietzsche, and others for showing what Pogo presented to us: “We have met the enemy, and it is us.” In these regards, the witch doctor or the medicine man or the shaman attend to the same issues: being lost, soulless, and not relating in an integrative way to our social environments (however you want to define “environments”).
What would it have taken to exorcise dysfunctional points of view from groups of people in their time? What does it require to be a full human being? (Oh-oh. We’re off the reservation again.)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Oct 31, 2016 - 10:16am PT
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What does it require to be a full human being?
No shortage of answers, there. Start with having your genes sequenced, if you are in any doubt.
I would also like to say that the ability to deceive other people is part of being a full human. But even more important is an ability to detect deception from other people.
In the movie Ex Machina all the main characters engage in deception, but curiously don't anticipate it very well in others.
That movie asks the question whether a person or machine really means what they say or otherwise express, or is just pretending.
Your brain may be creating the feeling that you exist. Does it really mean it, or is it just pretending as a way to get you to produce another brain with similar genes?
The movie The Usual Suspects has that line about the Devil's greatest trick was convincing the world he didn't exist. A greater trick would be convincing you that you exist.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Oct 31, 2016 - 04:21pm PT
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"How could he have spent his life cultivating unity of body and mind, oneness with all beings and the ability to apprehend reality directly, unmediated by thoughts or concepts or what Zen considered the arch delusion of 'the self' — only to be haunted by the feeling that he lacked the most basic unity of all?"
Interesting article, Mike. Thanks for the link. I would not have thought such internal conflicts would exist in a dedicated Zen master. Can the abandonment of one's "I" in meditative practices lead to a kind of internal invisibility rather than a sense of oneness? If one has psychological issues is it always advisable to seek enlightenment in this way?
Is it possible that JL and others, whose commentaries revolve about the lack of material substance in what are normally seen as physical objects, are projecting a quality of their own existence? When does "oneness" lead to emptiness? I hope this is not the case. It probably isn't.
Thanks to those few of you who are steering this conversation into map-less territory.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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^^^^^
John,
Who doesn’t have psychological issues?
It’s not my sense in spiritual practices that one abandons the “I,” but rather puts it into perspective. Abandoning the “I” would seem to me to present a hierarchical view: “there are things that are superior and paramount, and there are other things that are subordinate.” Opposed to a hierarchical view could be a more integrative view—a view that emphasizes completeness rather than perfection. So, there is the “I,” and then there is a whole bunch of other stuff that competes with the ego and completes it (dynamically, in constant tension).
Isn’t the brain supposed to be holographical? Aren’t some functions working with data from other functions located in other parts of the brain? Isn’t that what has made brain mapping difficult? Don’t we have a left and right hemisphere that work together? Don’t we have a consciousness and an unconsciousness that seem to communicate somewhat invisibly and in a language other than spoken fragments we hear in our heads? Isn’t there supposed to be a triune brain structure that references a primitive set of instincts, a a more evolved limbic system of (emotional and almost unperceived) hormonal chemistry, and in relatively modern parts that effect discursive calculative strategizing? Isn’t the brain particularly plastic, with many augmenting redundancies? Isn’t part of cognition outside of the brain (in physical aids, in memory in muscles)? If there really is an ego, where is it and what is it? Am I and my consciousness a committee / plurality of personalities, urges, and self-interested preferences, or am a One, a unified consciousness, a pure subjectivity? Am I forever unfolding—maybe even a surprise to myself?
There are so many unexplained and unperceived things about “me.”
I’m sort of with Jung. I’m open to fuller integrations of all the facets that I can sense in this thing I call (my) life. But, it includes not just me, not just this inner space / experience I call “mind.” It’s all that other so-called objective stuff outside of “me” and “mind.” That includes: democrat, republican, sociology, physics, religion, science, art, and everything and everyone who is not of this mind right here and right now. Integrative seems to mean allowing everything to just be; it means using the word “and” far more than the word “but”; letting go (talking my hands off the wheel a bit); trying to hear more than my own thoughts and words; and probably saying “I don’t know” a lot.
Emptiness tends to describe much of what I just wrote here; . . . and, yeah, emptiness also seems to be trap that I fall into often. Everything seems to be a trap.
Geez, . . . being awake seems really hard to do. It shouldn’t be, you know?
(“Work” is full engagement with reality, MH2--until it happens.)
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WBraun
climber
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It's completely impossible to abandon the "I".
It's never ever been done nor can it be done.
The "I" is the individual living entity itself.
The gross materialists should make an honest attempt to actually understand the "I" and consciousness before anything.
This is the actual "root" of life itself ......
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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I read the article Mike; really interesting and shows how fascinating and variegated things are. As Pema Chodron so succinctly says "you start where you are". But then again truly seeing where you are is usually quite elusive.
Fascinating for the ZM to expose to us and himself how seriously damaged his childhood was and yet how he excelled in sports and academics all the way to a PHD and professorship and then on to ZM. And then on to psycho therapy to look again in a different way and to seemingly come out somewhat more available or sensitive today.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Apropos of this discussion, I had an unusual experience this morning as I lay in bed on my back with no pillow under my head. I do this for an hour or so before arising. Normally I drift in and out of consciousness, sometimes slipping into a hypnagogic state from which I used to have experiences in the Art of Dreaming. Today I seemed to transition abruptly into a strange room, perhaps in a foreign land, and most remarkably into another personality.
We each have a feeling of how we "fit into" our lives and our environment, although strangely ineffable. We know it's "us" and are familiar with our "I". So it was startling to suddenly shift with no warning into another personality. And to make matters worse I felt I was actually being pulled into another being. With an effort I resisted and found myself "myself" again, but with a memory of the experience.
Later I went to the park and did a few pull-ups and felt more centered in my current psyche!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I wonder what the other personality felt? That they were being possessed by a demon? Good of you to pull back.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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So it was startling to suddenly shift with no warning into another personality. And to make matters worse I felt I was actually being pulled into another being. With an effort I resisted and found myself "myself" again, but with a memory of the experience.
At first I thought this could be low dopamine levels due to a compromised light environment, that is if it could be proven you were still awake! But it could be much deeper and involve some interesting undercurrents-- and not necessarily of a negative nature. You need to launch an FBI investigation into your psyche Mr. JGill. Good luck and happy surfing.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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"And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away: so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
Matthew 24:39
Universal was the doom, neither rich nor poor escaped: the learned and the illiterate, the admired and the abhorred, the religious and the profane, the old and the young, all sank in one common ruin. Some had doubtless ridiculed the patriarch--where now their merry jests? Others had threatened him for his zeal which they counted madness--where now their boastings and hard speeches? The critic who judged the old man's work is drowned in the same sea which covers his sneering companions. Those who spoke patronizingly of the good man's fidelity to his convictions, but shared not in them, have sunk to rise no more, and the workers who for pay helped to build the wondrous ark, are all lost also. The flood swept them all away, and made no single exception. Even so, out of Christ, final destruction is sure to every man of woman born; no rank, possession, or character, shall suffice to save a single soul who has not believed in the Lord Jesus. My soul, behold this wide-spread judgment and tremble at it.
How marvellous the general apathy! they were all eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, till the awful morning dawned. There was not one wise man upon earth out of the ark. Folly duped the whole race, folly as to self-preservation--the most foolish of all follies. Folly in doubting the most true God--the most malignant of fooleries. Strange, my soul, is it not? All men are negligent of their souls till grace gives them reason, then they leave their madness and act like rational beings, but not till then.
All, blessed be God, were safe in the ark, no ruin entered there. From the huge elephant down to the tiny mouse all were safe. The timid hare was equally secure with the courageous lion, the helpless cony as safe as the laborious ox. All are safe in Jesus. My soul, art thou in him?
CHARLES SPURGEON
Exodus 34:6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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jgill, maybe you had contact with another personality not of the flesh or of the flesh but not in the flesh. "Channeling" or perhaps a simple spirit possession. If it happens again, just ask who it is and wtf they are doing and to go away if your intentions are not honorable. Otherwise you are probably just losing your mind, but at least you knew who you were and that it wasn't you. A good start to grand adventure. ;)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jgill:
Things seem to get really weird sometimes, don’t they? Currently for me, it’s synchronicity. Everything that seems to be turning up seems connected in a web of coincidence. (If everything is One, then there will be infinite correlations as far as the “I” can see.)
You write about getting into another body, and I have similar issues that arose for me from a play last night.
Last night we viewed L.A. Theatre Works’ “Judgement at Nuremberg.” I was dreading the play: I expected it to be very political, overly dramatic, heavy, surely ponderous. It could have been downright deadly. How was I going to stay awake after a full day at school and then a drink with students afterwards? At first, my wife and I arrived at the wrong venue, and I was hoping that would be my out, but the right venue was only blocks away. We had to attend. Uhhh.
Surprise, surprise. It was one of the best plays I’ve seen. I was sorry for it to finish. The presentation was as a radio theatre, with actors in costume, some playing more than one part, standing behind microphones presenting their lines with feeling, miming some of the movements, always directly toward the audience. When a scene would turn intimate, actors would move forward to microphones closer to the audience at the edge of the stage. It was surprising how effective the acting and the set-up was.
The content was relevant. I wondered about the context in which the play was written as opposed to how the script might have changed (initially presented as a CBS Playhouse 90 drama in 1959 during the cold war, it was later presented as a movie in 1961 with a big set of famous actors and actresses). See http://www.latw.org/Tour/tour/nuremberg.html for a brief description of the issues. You could relate to Obama’s recent veto with regards to a law enabling suing the Saudi’s purported role in 9/11.) The play brings up a list of vicious political, psychological, and social dilemmas.
After the presentation, the actors changed and sat on stage for questions from audience members. They sensed and appreciated our engagement (even though we were a small audience due to the broadcast of game 6 of World Series at the same time).
I wanted to ask a question, but I could not articulate it well enough last night. Now I can.
A few famous actors are known for their immersion into a role, especially in movies. Daniel Day Lewis is one example; so is Christian Bale, I hear. Lewis has been known to drop himself in a role and character and stay in it until a movie was completed. (“Lincoln” is one movie that comes to mind.) Actors seem to have a capacity for plasticity by the very nature of their job. The actors last night will stay with this play for about 4 months as they tour the U.S. (See the URL above for their venues.) Then they’ll look for new roles in other plays. After a few years of this, they will have played many roles—at all times, attempting to be “an advocate for their characters.”
My question would have been: does playing all of these different roles over the years help you to know more about who and what you are, . . . or less? Don’t some of those characters seep into their identity and change them? In the end, what and who do they make themselves to be?
Jgill, would your experience seem just a little less strange or less disquieting if you *meant to* occupy another body (or even occupy another identity in the same body)? I mean, “strangeness” is the issue you’re most focused upon, isn’t it? You don’t normally go around trying to be or put yourself into other people’s bodies or lives.
This seems a prime reason why many folks shy away from what could be considered spiritual. It just seems and feels weird, . . . but gosh, how many things aren’t? Normalcy tends to be comforting. Ask anyone who’s attempted to lead a change effort with other people. From my bailiwick, that which is different or a real departure from “what I’m used to” will be resisted forcefully, insidiously, even unconsciously.
There is no equilibrium. There is no solid state. It just looks like it the moment that one makes an observation. Everything else before and after get smoothed-over and averaged-out. Wanna see how entrenched people’s beliefs, norms, and values are in their world? Put on your armor, poke their hidden assumptions, and then stand way back.
Be well.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I enjoy reading these subjective experiences or forays of mind. It is where the rubber meets the road. One can read all the science or philosophy or woo they want but the actual experience of mind outside the box or bubble is more fascinating and even edifying than comparing literature without actual experience, and to have those experiences without taking the obvious step to value judgement.
Fly on, Little Wing...
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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“Work” is full engagement with reality
Thank you for the warning. I'll try to avoid this "Work."
Reality is an important and busy word with a full appointment calendar, and doing face-to-face with me would be a waste of its precious time.
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