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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:52am PT
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Dr. F wrote: "Donny P. pure lying propaganda, your links If you only knew the lengths the Christians go to lie about evolution, its truly pathetic."
These "Lies" are not made by Christians, that was not a Christian video. Christianly had nothing to do with that argument that you threw out on that basis.
You have no inclination to deal with data and would rather deal with bias ad hominem arguments even when they are not available.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 21, 2009 - 10:45am PT
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reality has been quite shifty lately.
i have to stay drunk to keep my balance.
cheers to hay zues.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 11:02am PT
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GO believes that attempting to change the minds of believers to be more scientific would be potentially harmful
A correction: I think that successfully changing their minds would be potentially harmful. More relevant though - attempting to change their minds through any logical arguments is, by the very nature of faith and logic, a ridiculous endeavor.
Look at the stories of how it came to pass that some people changed their viewpoint about religion. In every case, they already had the world view that allowed the internal processing to be able to occur, and then they put two and two together on their own. I think any kind of forcing from outside would do no more than create roadblocks of defensiveness that would delay any internal processes that might lead to those kinds of moments.
I guess the point you're focusing on, though, is the most minor of my points: I do think that for those people who need Answers with a capital "A", a world without faith offers nothing. So not only would they adamantly reject such a worldview as useless and unappealing, but even if you could change their view (say, though brainwashing methods) - would you? Not I. People know what they need much better than I do.
Now when those world views branch out to affect others, I have no difficulty standing up for what I believe is right. But for personal matters, as others have said here - whatever gets you through the night.
GO
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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Tough sh'it Dr F.
If you can't find it in your lab it's not true.
Go back to your lab and save us all from our selves.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 12:55pm PT
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Dr F -- "so my version is the non-narrow minded version"
And still you get a tooth ache ....
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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folks think they own the wind just cause it come out both ends of 'em.
the wind holds no secrets, really its just a fluid responding to pressures.
it's hopeful though, to interject romantic whispers into this medium.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:08pm PT
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Werner said,
Everything in this thread matters. There was a conscious reason for posting for whatever reason the poster had.
Everything has a conscious purpose in life.
And they said there is no such thing as consciousness, only chance, chaos, and pure random.
No intelligent design. All thoughts are just random babel then.
Their intelligence has been taken away by this such stupid logic.
This statement speaks to the intent of the original poster, which was to refute "creationism". WB believes that everything that exists was intelligenly designed by a creator. He doesn't recognize the existence of natural processes.
That's where reason and science really have to draw a line in the sand. In order for science to work, we must assume that there is an underlying mechanism for everything we see in the world. To understand means to discover the underlying mechanism that determines the structure of the earth and the organisms that live on it.
To think otherwise is to leave everything to an arbitrary God to determine. If God creates everything according to his whim, how are we able to make predictions about our world? How can we make models of reality? God could do anything he felt like, could He not?
Werner believes that lack of intelligent design means that there is a lack of purpose and a randomness in the world. I say that the exact opposite is true. When there are rules there is not randomness, and that is not to say that chance is not a part of the world (far from it).
There IS purpose in life and that purpose is to reproduce. The purpose of all life is to propagate genetic material into the future. Now I know that sounds pretty stark to someone who believes that purpose is to serve God, but that's simply the way it is, and why we exist.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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777:
I was an eastern climber, being from NY so I was climbing with Joe Kelsey. And it was the Steck Salathe. We rapped off the buttress and only the anchor for the second rappel was a problem. When we got down Chuck Pratt had a pot of hot soup heating up on the tailgate of his squareback.
Swimming off Cape Breton. That is very severe!
I think GO’s comments are very much to the point so this is what I have decided. I will be careful not to proselytize for atheism. A person’s mode of life is their choice. While it is probably wrong for organizations to proselytize for a religion my following them in that wrong does not make a right.
I will continue freely to express myself however. I have never seen any evidence for the existence of either god or of a soul and I will not refrain from saying exactly that.
I will also note one of the saddest things on earth is how we can have religions which say very good and very similar things in their codes but we don’t see any effect on the ease with which people go to war, some of them even religious wars. It is as though something else entirely trumps the desire not to treat others in the ways we would not chose ourselves to be treated.
If what I have said or done here has mistreated others, I apologize.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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I seek not to intrude on your belief system or to dissuade you from it. I believe that your belief can guide you and comfort you in your life.
What I object to is when these belief systems attempt to intrude into the domain of science. That is what Creationism is all about. It's an attempt to hijack science to lend support to a particular belief system.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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I stand by every word that I wrote. I will not back down.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
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Nor- "the dark corner of the mystery which is a tiny bit enlightening, might keep itself tidy in a wee peyote seed"
A wee bit of faith, the size of a mustard seed (the smallest of all seeds) will bring the mystery to light!
Nor- "wars, killings and a general hard-heartedness has ensued"
Splendid observation Nor!!
For there will be wars and rumors of war....the love of many will grow cold Mathew. 24:6-12 (it has been all foretold).
Nor-"no hints to its cause lie in the bible"
One thing is certain. The bible is not the cause!!
Norwegian, you are far from being labeled mediocre!
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:56pm PT
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Let's let Werner speak for himself. Let him say that he does not believe that God doesn't play a role in natural processes, or not. His statements led me to conclude that that is exactly what he believes.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
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I don't believe in anything.
I take only absolute facts.
God does play a role in natural processes.
The natural process is an extension of his external energy.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Werner, please tell me the definition of an absolute fact.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
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Advanced civilizations millions of years ago cremated the dead bodies.
No bones.
Animals don't cremate.
The modern scientists still have not dug through all the layers of the earth.
Their theories are totally defective .....
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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Wow, that's persuasive.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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Was that a spelling error, or one of punctuation, Werner? Last line.
Except for the word totally, I'm with you, either way, to an extent.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
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Ok jaygro misspelled. Fixed it.
Doesn't matter anyways.
It's all just a blitz kreig assault onto the stuck in the mud folks who try always try and attribute and align their every stupid post against Jesus Christ and Christianity.
These same very people who have attacked with their asinine photos cartoons etc. are now coming out of the woodwork to defend their so called "God" which they call now "science".
The whole thing is just plain juvenile and stupid.
To end:
We consequently see that one philosopher may disagree with another philosopher, and one scientist may put forward a theory contradicting the theory of another scientist. All of this is due to their working on the mental platform without a standard of knowledge.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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Dr F go back to your laboratory and mix some chemicals and create life.
Get to work, your time is short ...
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