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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 28, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
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Chief, the first chart is 150 years or so and the later one is hundreds of thousands. Do you have a chart like the first one for Antarctica?
Of course there are natural climate cycles over thousands of years. But look at the natural change of CO2 over time vs. what we have done in the last 50 years.
Look at the sea ice. Are you ok with polar bears going extinct? I'm an enviromentalist primarily becuase I want to keep the planet in good shape for people, but it makes me sad to see the natural world paying the price too.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 28, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
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Ok, chief I guess you're not interested in reality. A prius still gets low 40s at that speed.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 28, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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Yeah I guess all the people who track their Prius' mpg religously are all wrong LOL!
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 28, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
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His MPG drops into the middle to low teens as soon as he starts running at constant speeds above 75-80mph.
Well sure, if you go really fast (>75) your fuel efficiency will drop quite a bit. That's true for any vehicle.
My hybrid averages over 40 mpg and I drive normal highway speeds: i.e., speed limit + 5-10 mph.
But overall, the improvement in gas mileage should be quite noticeable.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 28, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
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In other words, they are using more fuel to the gallon than I am...fact!
Oh yes a V8 4X4 pickup usually gets better mpg than a prius LMAO.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 28, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
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Let's see... WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.
But please tell me where this place is in the Sierra is that has 6" of fresh 75% of the time. I'll teach you how to ski powder and drive in the snow.
Where you live looks beautiful, but I wish I had the picture on this computer of my 4Runner with 4' of snow on it from one nights storm, in front of a snowbank that was over 10' high when I lived at Donner Summit. That's real snow. BTW it was the same 4runner that I drove to Alaska in 20+ below on the AlCan.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jun 28, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
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the Fet - an easy way to reduce your homes carbon footprint
(hate that term) is replace incandescent light bulbs with those
twisty CFL's.
Have you done this?
Just asking. We now have 26 CFL's installed here
doing a few now and then when needed over the last few years.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 28, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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Yeah carbon footprint souunds like you walked thru a campfire ring.
I have cfls. Should be cheaper in the log run. Only drawbak they take a while to get bright.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 28, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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This is the "city" where I live.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 28, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
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we spin our wheels on all the evidence. we never get traction. if we were getting to the truth, we'd get traction. al gore plays democrat martyr after he throws the election to republican satans. no one calls him on the important thing.
we rarely get enough truth filtering through the media fog to give realistic direction to public policy. cigarette smoking was a rare exception, but look what happened with that. you can't rent a movie these days without seeing your favorite stars and starlets lighting up like it's what cool people do everywhere. a decent movie director wouldn't even allow it, but all the movie money has casual cigaretting attached to it. congress can outlaw cigarette advertising on television, but the teenagers get suggestive advertising in every movie they watch, and they watch plenty.
here's a great example of this. i'll bet everyone here believes asbestos is the worst stuff in the world, don't want to get near it, much less breathe its tiny, evil, carcinogenic fibers, right?
i took a contractor's exam last year and there's a special part to it and special literature devoted to asbestos. from page 12 of their asbestos guide:
"a court decision has determined that the following asbestos-containing materials are no longer subject to the asbestos ban and phase-out rule: asbestos-cement corrugated sheet, asbestos-cement flat sheet, asbestos-cement shingle, asbestos-cement pipe, asbestos clothing (!--my exclamation point), millboard, pipeline wrap, roofing felt, non-roofing coatings, roof coatings, and vinyl-asbestos floor tile. the court decision means the asbestos-containing materials no longer subject to the ban and phase-out rule can be manufactured, processed, imported and used in the united states."
whoaaaa--something wrong here? maybe it isn't that bad after all? but i can still lose my license if i "handle" it wrong? things like this make me lose my trust of all information filtering down to us serfs. there's no attempt to explain this. we're just told "a court decision has determined" and expected to accept, basically, a totally senseless scenario. global warming is from the same zoo.
did i mention who killed the electric car? on this thread? watch that sad little documentary. the electric car movement, which i happened to have been involved in for a time in the 1980s, should have given plenty of traction for all the environmental concerns we hear about here. oh, it had traction, allright, way too much traction, and it was murdered in cold blood under the administration of bill and al, who could damn well have done a hell of a lot about it. it wasn't in the script then, but their crocodile tears are now.
bill and al are little people. you may not understand that, but they really are. they don't make that much money--you can tell by their taste in women. they're just happy to be on the winning side. their modest money is smart money because they've seen lots of people who belong to the same club living out their lives on smart money. it's a better future than the rest of us have.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 28, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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I guess Chiloe and Ed are worn out.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 28, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
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Mammoth 400" a year. Sugar bowl 500".
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 29, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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Well you have one thing right chef. It is the Sierra not the sierras.
You'r right if you are concerned about climate change it's like a religion and you must walk everywhere and eat raw veggies. And if you don't worry about climate change you are a polluter who leaves sh#t and tp all over the wilderness. Right?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 29, 2010 - 01:05am PT
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99% of people concernced about climate change are not these agw religous types that you have been fooled into believing are the majority. Can't you see they are tricking you?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 29, 2010 - 01:16am PT
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Sorry for dragging you back Ed.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jun 29, 2010 - 04:05am PT
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Good stuff guys. But now how about a promising solution that may put a smile on the faces of the AGW faithful.
They're made as an alternative heat source for coal fired power plants
and start shipping in the next few years.(as a simple retrofit)
Hyperion Power Module Product Characteristics
http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/product.html
1. Transportable
# Unit will measure approximately 1.5m wide x 2.5m tall
# Fits into a standard fuel transport container
# Transported via ship, rail, or truck
# Modular design for easy and safe transport
2. Sealed Core – Safe and Secure
# Factory sealed; no in-field refueling, closed fuel cycle
# Returned to the factory for fuel and waste disposition
3. Safety
# System will handle any accident through a combination of inherent and engineered features
# Inherent negative feedback keeps the reactor stable and operating at a constant temperature
# Sited underground, out of sight
# Proliferation-resistant; never opened once installed
4. Operational Simplicity
# Operation limited to reactivity adjustments to maintain constant temperature output of 500C
# Produces power for 8 to 10 years depending on use
5. Minimal In-Core Mechanical Components
# Operational reliability is greatly enhanced by the reduction of moving mechanical parts
6. Isolated Power Production
# Electric generation components requiring maintenance are completely separated from the reactor
# Allows existing generation facilities to be retrofitted
# The Hyperion Power Module will be licensed by national and international regulatory authorities.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 04:19am PT
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I happen to be a friend of Prof Jeff Gritzner, who was my neighbor in Alexandria Virginia when he worked at the National Research Council and I worked as a contractor for US EPA and DOE. His areas of specialty include cultural ecology, public policy, Africa, the Middle East, and environmental geography. Jeff is now at the University of Montana and has an incredible wealth of knowledge about our planet and the peoples on it. He nearly got thrown out of NRC for his early work predicting global climate warming. Then when people started to understand and adopt his views, he did get thrown out of NRC when he started pointing out that as the planet warmed, the air temperature would drop - the reason being that the melting ice caps would lower the air temperature until the ice was gone; at which time the air temperature would shoot upwards. His work is not necessarily easy for politicians to digest.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 11:19am PT
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why does a dog licks its nuts? :-)
burn the poop, CC? they've been doing that in arkansas for years. oh, different hyperion. safe nukes. lots of market fantasy data, not much about the half-life of fuels. that info fog again.
ed, by your own admission, science is "about understanding phenomena that are rather subtle whose explanation can sometimes defy common sense".
the quick, common-sense explanation here is anthropogenic global warming. sometimes common sense is right. sometimes, yes, things are more subtle. don't ask me for the answer to this one--i've learned to know what i don't know. it'd be nice if both you and rick would humble up a little too.
i don't think rick has great command of the material. he should be working for national geographic, where pretty pictures prove just about anything. the sierra looks like that, in places, every winter, but i think, from my casual observations, that its glaciers have been receding, as glaciers have been doing worldwide. temperature is not necessarily the factor there, but it may be. people talk a lot about carbon dioxide, but does anyone talk about the raw heat generated from every megalopolis in the world? it jumps right into the troposphere and pretty much stays there.
but listen to me a minute. public policy is not driven by the truth in this or any other matter. if anything, it's driven by a calculated perversity hiding within that information fog. that's what we have to cut through to get to the bottom of this and begin to build a solution. we won't be arguing with each other if we can do that.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jun 29, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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Hey Ed (and Chiloe) I hope you don't get frustrated by the reactionaries and continue to add to this thread.
Because GW/CC concerns have been swamped by everything else thats going on, its not that easy to keep updated. It really helps to have knowledgeable people talking about the information thats out there, and also whats new.
Its even useful when you respond to the misinformation and general nonsense of a few persistent posters.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 29, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
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I would agree that humans will adapt to climate change, but it will be ugly. Climate change is here and I am very pessimistic that the world will take much in the way of serious steps to minimize it.
So given that I don't think global warming will cause the extinctions of humans, we will adapt. If you call adapting having more Sudan style failed states/civil wars, droughts/floods, and (after spending billions in a falied attempt to build sea walls and pumps) millions of people leaving the Miami area in search of dry ground...
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