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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 14, 2016 - 06:22am PT
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Also, since I'm new here and I can pretty much predict some type of dumbass comment coming from either Norton or Dirtbag in the near future, do you guys generally just ignore those retards or how does that work?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2016 - 06:23am PT
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Escopeto posted If it is an "American System" of which the government is a part. Then removing some amount of government would, in theory, leave this "American System" still meaningfully intact?
I can't decide if I should answer "yes, of course, because our country is completely modular like a computer" or "of course not, because the government has it's evil, dark, slimy tendrils wrapped around the soul of America and to attempt to remove it would rend flesh and sinew, mortally wounding it" so I'll just toss them both out there.
I don't really see the point of this question. "Removing some government" is such a weird thing to say. I'm pretty sure we don't ladle government out of a bucket.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jan 14, 2016 - 06:25am PT
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Welcome to the LIBERLAND sh#t show drum circle..
Escopeta
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2016 - 06:26am PT
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Escopeta asked Also, since I'm new here and I can pretty much predict some type of dumbass comment coming from either Norton or Dirtbag in the near future, do you guys generally just ignore those retards or how does that work?
As pyro demonstrated, you just rely on other people to make dumbass comments defending you.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 14, 2016 - 06:29am PT
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I can't decide if I should answer "yes, of course, because our country is completely modular like a computer" or "of course not, because the government has it's evil, dark, slimy tendrils wrapped around the soul of America and to attempt to remove it would rend flesh and sinew, mortally wounding it" so I'll just toss them both out there.
Assuming its somewhere in between those two ends of the spectrum, where would you put it? You had mentioned earlier I think that you would be comfortable with changes to the tax code as long as the overall "revenue" base stayed the same. Should I infer from that, again using taxes as a proxy for "government", that any amount of decrease would upset the apple cart of the "American System" you spoke of? Also, I'm going to stop using quotes since its a PITA and it also seems mocking which isn't the intent.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 14, 2016 - 06:33am PT
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As pyro demonstrated, you just rely on other people to make dumbass comments defending you.
Is that what dirtbag and norton are doing? Making stupid comments defending you? That makes sense because you jumped all over me claiming I wasn't engaging properly on the thread yet sat silent as they played with their own feces. I get it now.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2016 - 06:35am PT
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You're awfully literal. No, they weren't "defending me" but there is an unfortunate chasm that has developed over the last decade or so and most of the posters who engaged in earnest (if heated) discussion have left or stopped engaging and what is left are people who are mostly in the habit of tossing bombs or posting political cartoons.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 14, 2016 - 06:38am PT
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Also, on the subject of editing posts. You obviously made a flippant comment, then went back to edit it. Is there protocol for that? Obviously, I've gone back and edited some posts for spelling, grammar, etc (as best I can) but try to use a footnote if I change content.
Hows that work? And why did you edit your post?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2016 - 06:41am PT
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Escopeta posted Assuming its somewhere in between those two ends of the spectrum, where would you put it? You had mentioned earlier I think that you would be comfortable with changes to the tax code as long as the overall "revenue" base stayed the same. Should I infer from that, again using taxes as a proxy for "government", that any amount of decrease would upset the apple cart of the "American System" you spoke of? Also, I'm going to stop using quotes since its a PITA and it also seems mocking which isn't the intent.
I'm comfortable with all kinds of changes. What I posted was a specific idea based on specific recommendations made by a broad spectrum of economists that is up for discussion. I'm interested in outcomes.
Taxes are not a proxy for government, that's a political ploy made by people who want lower taxes. We could have a 100% volunteer government that was insanely intrusive or an extremely expensive government that provided no infrastructure, services or regulation of any kind. We had much, much higher taxes 50 years ago but Republicans tell us all the time that government has only gotten more inept, less effective and more intrusive (i.e. bigger in Republican parlance) since then. Both things cannot be true.
Also, on the subject of editing posts. You obviously made a flippant comment, then went back to edit it. Is there protocol for that? Obviously, I've gone back and edited some posts for spelling, grammar, etc (as best I can) but try to use a footnote if I change content.
I sometimes cannot resist my darker urges. I answered snarkily and immediately changed the post. I saw several minutes ago that you replied to it so I already went back and readded it.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 14, 2016 - 06:48am PT
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I had a hard time understanding your answer there through the commentary. Was it that you aren't comfortable with any reductions in the overall tax/revenue level?
If so, would it be safe to infer that you are of the opinion that even MORE taxes/revenue would make the American System even MORE better and the millionaire becomes a billionaire for example and the mother of 2 improves her lot in life a relative amount?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2016 - 07:23am PT
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If so, would it be safe to infer that you are of the opinion that even MORE taxes/revenue would make the American System even MORE better and the millionaire becomes a billionaire for example and the mother of 2 improves her lot in life a relative amount?
That's an absurdly facile way to look at how things work. I'm not sure what you're trying to get to here. Increasing tax revenue increases tax revenue.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 14, 2016 - 07:31am PT
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I'm trying to get you to answer a single question to be truthful.
You said that the millionaire benefits more from the American System than the mother of 2. And that the government (in this case, taxes) plays a part in that overall American System that benefits the millionaire.
You used that same justification for the millionaire paying a disproportionately larger amount of taxes.
I think what I'm really trying to understand is that how big of a part does the government play, in your mind, in this American System you refer to. Is it a big part, or a little part.
One of the ways to try and understand that is by asking the question - If you remove some portion of it, how much of the American System is left.
If you don't understand the question, I'll try to restate it.
(BTW, you also didn't answer the other question about your potential typo - that's yes or no so should be pretty easy. )
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 14, 2016 - 07:37am PT
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You're awfully literal. No, they weren't "defending me" but there is an unfortunate chasm that has developed over the last decade or so and most of the posters who engaged in earnest (if heated) discussion have left or stopped engaging and what is left are people who are mostly in the habit of tossing bombs or posting political cartoons.
Not really. It's hard to take someone seriously when they speak in platitudes and self righteous sermonizing "either you are for government stealing/taxation and tyranny or you are a liberty," behaves patronizingly, then gets butt hurt when people don't take him seriously after claiming he doesn't really care what us crude, government leaches think. Mostly he's just a self righteous bore.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2016 - 07:52am PT
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Escopeta asked I think what I'm really trying to understand is that how big of a part does the government play, in your mind, in this American System you refer to. Is it a big part, or a little part.
One of the ways to try and understand that is by asking the question - If you remove some portion of it, how much of the American System is left.
Again, you are trying to make modular something that isn't modular. Our government is integral and innate to us, not an alien force. I'm not able to answer your question because I do not believe in the premise of it. I think the discussion you want to be having is about the level of intrusiveness government should have an in what ways which is a perfectly good conversation to have.
dirtbag posted Not really. It's hard to take someone seriously when they speak in platitudes and self righteous sermonizing "either you are for government stealing/taxation and tyranny or you are a liberty,"
I agree, dirt, but he's not doing that now so he deserves earnest engagement. Join the campfire.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 14, 2016 - 08:05am PT
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Again, you are trying to make modular something that isn't modular. Our government is integral and innate to us, not an alien force. I'm not able to answer your question because I do not believe in the premise of it. I think the discussion you want to be having is about the level of intrusiveness government should have an in what ways which is a perfectly good conversation to have.
Honestly, the discussion I want to have is the one I'm asking about. I am trying very hard to not put words in your mouth (something that, quite frankly, you have done an awful lot of to me) so I don't want to sit here and try to answer my own questions and then ask you "Is this what you mean?"
I'm not proposing that government, or taxes, or however you define that portion of the so-called American System is modular and that we can simply unplug it in its entirety. But I certainly don't think its reasonable to assume that the piece can't get bigger or smaller respectively.
As you infered, the American System is complex, involving a lot of moving parts of which government and taxes play a part.
How big of a part does it play in your opinion. Big or Small?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jan 14, 2016 - 08:17am PT
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To be honest, the public doesn't care much. The debt and deficit are not hot topics in this election. Politicians are avoiding the unpopular issues of raising taxes and cutting programs. In a strengthening economy Democrats aren't going to raise taxes and Republicans aren't going to cut spending. So here we are.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 14, 2016 - 08:20am PT
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I agree, dirt, but he's not doing that now so he deserves earnest engagement. Join the campfire
Yep, which is why I stayed out of it, until he took a shot.
Barring any more shots, I plan to step out for awhile.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jan 14, 2016 - 08:29am PT
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I am a registered Republican who voted for Obama twice, has zero regrets and would do it again.
How about you, Escopeta, who did you vote for?
Now don't be a coward and deflect the question
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2016 - 08:42am PT
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Escopeta posted How big of a part does it play in your opinion. Big or Small?
In my opinion government plays a big part in our system. I'm pretty sure that's why we are so proud of having a democracy and whatnot.
dirtbag posted Barring any more shots, I plan to step out for awhile.
C'mon, dirt. Don't be that guy who only posts when it's time to talk sh#t. You're a smart guy, post some content.
Norton posted Now don't be a coward and deflect the question
C'mon, dude. Escopeta survived the first round of hazing.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 14, 2016 - 08:45am PT
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To be honest, the public doesn't care much. The debt and deficit are not hot topics in this election. Politicians are avoiding the unpopular issues of raising taxes and cutting programs. In a strengthening economy Democrats aren't going to raise taxes and Republicans aren't going to cut spending. So here we are.
Hard to disagree with that assessment. Which is not only a commentary on the public but also highlights the reality that the Republicans and the Democrats have effectively converged.
Which conjures the Chinese proverb that says:
"If you don't change direction, you might end up where you are heading".
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