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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 30, 2013 - 01:31am PT
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Matt was hitting up very established stuff from the guidebooks/ internet, and this was his hoped last day here, cuz his car was nearly fixed(?) BTW: Norco has a bad reputation for locals, or former customers - the last place you'd take your car (but I digress). Looking at the list of all the climbs he did on this trip (he's on mainstream summits etc seen in print and internet). Seems to me that Ritter would be the one he most wanted to finally tick.
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 10:25am PT
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Matt was hitting up very established stuff from the guidebooks/ internet, and this was his hoped last day here, cuz his car was nearly fixed
I've been following thread, but first time jumping in. No expert by any means of anything that has to do with hiking/climbing. Not at all familiar with the area. But, something just kind of struck me. There does seem to be a lot of evidence that Matt may have wanted to do Ritter/Banner and that fits with missing pages from guide book, etc. And it is assumed he was saving the best for last BUT didn't I read on here that Matt was told his car would be ready several times and wasn't? So, let's say he thought his car would have been ready days earlier (because he was told that repeatedly), hypothetically on the 14th (just picking a random date - I don't know how many times his car was promised or dates, maybe someone else knows this?) Wouldn't he have planned and done that saving the best for last moment before the 14th? If his car was promised earlier, he wouldn't have anticipated still being there on the 17th. Just seems if he really wanted to do this, it would have been done earlier than the 17th because I don't think he believed he would still be there on the 17th earlier in the month.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:03am PT
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Lazydays, I think that's a good point. Here's an edited version of the timeline that SplitPants posted upthread -- I've bolded some things:
July 11th (Thursday)
Log does not show any voice or text messages
Took the shuttle and climbed Clyde Minaret (confirmed) -solo
[TeddyKGBee/Tom] Later confirmed it was 7/11 that Matt took the shuttle.
This same day he talked to a local maintenance worker at Devils Postpile NM (via shuttle ride) about Ritter, banner, and the cross country hike between Ediza, Iceberg, Cecile, and Minaret Lake. ((emphasis added -- LAhiker))
July 12th (Friday)
Mammoth Crest (solo)
7/12 8:10 PM ET / 5:10 PM PT 2 Peak -- (repair shop)
7/12 8:13 PM ET / 5:13 PM PT 1 Peak -- (repair shop)
Credit card charge for Rite-Aid in the amount of $15.19
July 13th (Saturday)
Unicorn Peak (solo)
7/13 7:15 PM ET / 4:15 PM PT Text Sent
7/13 7:21 PM ET / 4:21 PM PT Text Received
7/13 7:41 PM ET / 4:41 PM PT Text Sent
Credit card charge for Vons in the amount of $39.22
July 14th (Sunday)
Hiking/climbing/rest activity is unknown for this day per Jill
7/14 5:13 PM ET / 2:13 PM PT Text Received
7/14 5:24 PM ET / 2:24 PM PT Text Sent
7/14 5:50 PM ET / 2:50 PM PT Text Received
7/14 11:03 PM ET / 8:03 PM PT 1 Off-Peak -- (voicemail)
July 15th (Monday)
Was seen on Yarts bus going to Toulomne to climb some domes??? per Jill [unconfirmed]
7/15 8:04 AM ET / 5:04 AM PT 2 Off-Peak
7/15 9:01 AM ET / 6:01 AM PT 2 Peak
7/15 3:21 PM ET / 12:21 PM PT Text Received
7/15 7:44 PM ET / 4:44 PM PT Text Sent
7/15 7:46 PM ET / 4:46 PM PT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/15 8:49 PM ET / 5:49 PM PT 2 Peak
7/15 9:34 PM ET / 6:34 PM PT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/15 9:35 PM ET / 6:35 PM PT 7 Peak
7/15 9:46 PM ET / 6:46 PM PT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/15 10:34 PM ET / 7:34 PM PT Text Received
7/15 10:36 PM ET / 7:36 PM PT Text Sent
7/15 10:38 PM ET / 7:38 PM PT Text Received
July 16th (Tuesday) summary: he spent the day in town -- lots of texting
So we don't know what he did on the 14th or 15th, though he might have gone to Tuolomne on the 15th. Matt didn't sign registers at Banner or Ritter, so as people have been saying, he might have attempted those peaks. Cragman and colleagues, and Mattyj, have done searches in that area.
But I'm also wondering about the "cross-country hike between Ediza, Iceberg, Cecile, and Minaret Lake." I know that some of that area was searched by Chris Zavecz and Frank Martin during their trip to the area on August 10th through 15th, and that other people in that search team may also have searched some of those areas.
I'm just wondering -- how big is that cross-country hike? Does any of it involve snow, such that Matt would take his ice-axe, crampons, and Sportivas? If he hadn't done it already, could he have started out on that on the 17th? Forgive me if this has already been discussed and I missed it.
(Another possibility -- he saw something interesting in the Mammoth Crest area on the 12th and went back...)
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:38am PT
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Thanks LAhiker. Speculating here - I went up thread and read the details and maintenance worker conversation. On 7/11, according to that conversation, Matt hadn't decided what he would do that day. I'm assuming any one of those areas would have been a big/epic climb/hike (pardon my ignorance here). He chose Clyde. As per text with friend, as I recall, Clyde was fun, but scary. Next day he calls shop twice after Mammoth Crest. (Is Mammoth Crest particularly challenging or more on the easy side?) It almost seems to me that 7/11 would have been the saving best for last day because he may have thought his car would be ready at end of business day on the 12th (based on calls to them). So, if Mammoth Crest is on the easier side, maybe he just planned to do something easier, closer, as to be readily available when his car was. It almost seems that maybe the 17th would have been that way. He took limited equipment, but enough to cover any snowy/icy spots, no helmet, which would be unusual for him. I don't know what areas that leaves, but maybe it's an indication that he decided to rule out ritter/banner? But, then again, maybe not. Just seems odd that if he thought he would be out of there by the 17th, why wouldn't he have done it already?
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:47am PT
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I contacted a well known Medium who I truly believe in as I have seen him at work. This is harsh and I know it may disturb many of you but this is what he says happened.
"Mathew was mauled by a large animal who dragged his body off of a pathway and into a ravine-esq area. It has been picked over by other predators. As to where I can't pinpoint it but he actually appears to have bled to death. Fortunately he appears to have gone into immediate shock after the attack followed by unconsciousness."
In my opinion, looking off of wooded trails rather than the high peaks could produce results.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:57am PT
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@Lazydays,
I don't know. Maybe Jill or Ron/Tiffany know more about what the repair shop said. I think they told him on the 16th that it would be done on the 18th, so maybe they'd said it would be done on the 15th or 16th and then extended it?
Now that I come to think about it more closely, I do think that if he had strongly believed that his car would be done on the 12th, he might not have have talked about Ritter, Banner, and the cross-country hike when speaking with the maintenance worker. Though who knows -- the repair shop kept putting him off.
I also think that based on what Tiffany said, if he'd planned an epic climb for the 14th or 15th, he would have mentioned it to someone. And if he'd done something he really wanted to do, such as Ritter or Banner, wouldn't he have mentioned that? But then, it appears that he didn't mention any such epic climb for the 17th, either.
I still think you're right that because he kept thinking the car would be ready, he may have done many of the big things he wanted to do there. And the converse may hold -- he might not have felt 100% sure that the car would indeed be ready on the 18th. So though he may have deliberately done something non-epic before his hoped-for departure for Colorado on the 18th, he still may not have regarded the 17th as a clearly-defined "last day in town."
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:58am PT
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But I'm also wondering about the "cross-country hike between Ediza, Iceberg, Cecile, and Minaret Lake." I'm just wondering -- how big is that cross-country hike? Does any of it involve snow, such that Matt would take his ice-axe, crampons, and Sportivas? If he hadn't done it already, could he have started out on that on the 17th? Forgive me if this has already been discussed and I missed it. There are 2 considerably different "cross country" "hikes".
I'll start from the southern end at Minaret Lake.
There's short class 2 "cliff" to climb at the N end of Minaret Lake. It is commonly crossed by backpackers and climbers with loads. At the top of the short "cliff" you come to Cecile Lake which is directly below the east prow of Clyde Minaret and also directly below South Notch.
This bit of cross country hiking is traveled frequently, especially by climbers.
I'm pretty sure Matt is not between Minaret and Cecile lakes, he'd have been found by now.
Note that Cecile Lake is the usual approach to South Notch and to the "back side" of the southern Minarest, also the 5.8 rock route on the SE side of Clyde. It is frequently used as a camp/bivvy site.
From Cecile Lake things get interesting.
The "standard" cross country trail is in fact a well traveled track. It's rough but never dangerous. It goes from the north side of Cecile Lake down to Iceberg Lake and then Ediza. This trail isn't on the maps but might as well be.
so far, no need for mountain boots, axe or crampons in late July.
The high route (definitely NOT a trail), dangerous in several places, from Cecile Lake to Ritter/Banner (you wouldn't take it to Ediza) goes up steeply on scree and rock to the base of the Clyde glacier.
Then depending on snow/ice conditions follows the top of a steep and rugged cliff band (above Iceberg Lake) across to the SE Glacier on Ritter (passing above the steep cliffs above Iceberg and Ediza). In mid July there would be some patches of snow between the toe of the glacier and the cliff tops.
This could NOT ever be called a trail. Every time across it requires a different route across barren rock, ledges covered with loose rock, icy gullies and heaps of talus. A slip or fall in the wrong place could be disastrous.
Cragman has twice traveled from Ritter SE Glacier south (towards Cecile Lake) across the northern section of this route. His second trip brought them to the deepest of the two big gullies. Directly below Eichorn Minaret. See his trip reports.
This route must be traveled to get to any of the Minarets' east faces from either Cecile Lake or Ritter. Matt certainly traveled it to get to the base of the 5.5 variation to the Rock Route on the NE face of Clyde.
Whether he came from Cecile Lake or Ritter is unknowable.
I don't believe the southern section from Cecile to the deep gully has been searched.
This route is definitely dangerous, especially AFTER the snow has cleared (which it certainly had by 17 July) and the loose rock and talus are exposed.
I've used the "high" route from Cecile to Ritter in spring snow conditions. We really didn't want to recross it so after a lot of discussion we returned the long way, down to Ediza and back to Cecile via Iceberg Lake.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
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Matt's somewhat sparse credit card activity suggests he usually paid cash for everyday needs. I assume Matt's family looked at his bank account(s)...debit card, ATM activity, deposits/withdrawals, etc.? What were his personal banking habits in the weeks before Mammoth? Did the pattern change or were there unusual amounts in or out of any accounts...including secondary or dormant accounts most people have? It might suggest or rule out an unexpected problem he was handling, as well as foul play. Was he the type to carry large amounts of cash? Would he be likely to pay the big car repair bill by credit, debit, or cash?
Sorry if this has been done...I only recall discussion of CC activity.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
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kenish
all that's been covered. Some facts and clues have been gleaned.
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
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Now that I come to think about it more closely, I do think that if he had strongly believed that his car would be done on the 12th, he might not have have talked about Ritter, Banner, and the cross-country hike when speaking with the maintenance worker. Though who knows -- the repair shop kept putting him off.
According to the conversation, they talked about Clyde as well and that he didn't have a definitive plan for the day but we know he ultimately chose Clyde. Almost like that would have been the epic day.
But, then again - since he was obviously there longer than anticipated, Ritter/Banner could have and probably did cross his mind again.
Just thinking out loud... And sincerely hoping that he is found.
It is really amazing how everyone has come together to try to help find Matt. It restores faith in humanity. You are all a tremendously awesome bunch of people. A lof of hearts hurting in and around the school district. You have all given Nazareth a reason to hope. Thank you all.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
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Not true Timid Rope. A psychic found a missing girl who was murdered off of hwy 17 in Santa Cruz several years back. I contacted Tom Browns Tracker School Today to see if his team can get involved.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
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Timid, Mtnmun, and Paul,
Could you please knock it off or take your argument private?
We all want to find Matt; we each have our own methods and bring something to this forum. I personally think that both logic and psychic intuitions can play a role, along with interviewing people ("humint"), other aspects of detective work, aerial photography, and the brave and difficult work of searching done by Cragman, Mattyj, Matt's climbing friends, and others.
While I understand that each of you feels that your methods are crucial, they are not mutually exclusive. Debating something that cannot be resolved, however, takes the thread off-track.
It takes a village to find a man. Let's have peace in the village, and focus on finding Matt.
Thanks!
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
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@Timid- I don't want to turn this into a tangential debate..there are credible people out there with a history of finding clues and missing people. But there are far more quacks, whackos, and con artists. Here in SoCal a kid went missing about 50 miles from here and a woman in my city was instrumental in finding him (unfortunately killed by his half brother). The police chief said she was instrumental after they had given up...she led them to a spot which had been combed several times. The woman came forward voluntarily and doesn't call herself a psychic. She feels she simply has deeper intuition into the facts reported on the news.
Bottom line, there are people out there whose leads shouldn't be dismissed offhand. Vetting their credibility is a problem.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
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TTR, I agree with you 100%, and as someone who's gone in and looked for Matt and is thinking of doing so again in Sept, those posts make it that much harder to keep up with what I think the relevant info is. Obviously they can't all be right as we now have a difference of psychic opinions.
I know you were responding to mtnmun and I have no idea what his/her relation to the Greenes is, but I hope you also realize that most of the psychic-related posts on this thread come directly from Matt's family. I certainly think they have the right to pursue whatever avenues they want in their search for Matt.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 30, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
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Hi all,
I am sending Split Pants a list of all possible people who had contact with Matt prior to his disappearance who mentioned it on Facebook along with their links. I am also sending a few names of people who are climbers and have volunteered to help. Please let me know if there is anything else I can do.
Tonight we are having our first football game. The entire school and staff are wearing green to support all of the efforts to find Matt and to bring him home safely.
Thank you for all that you are doing. Be safe.
Supermama
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 30, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
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I can do that....:)
Supermama
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 30, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
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Timid TopRope -- " ... you will find that mediums /psychics have NEVER, I repeat, NEVER found a missing person or body."
Timid TopRope, not very intelligent statement.
They have pretty accurately described the location of missing person bodies at times.
unfortunately searchers have misinterpreted their descriptions at times.
But once subject had been found the location description proved accurate.
I have actual real world experience with this .....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 30, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
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Aug 24, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Officer Hugelman requested that I send him the images I took upon discovering the glasses- here is a copy of the email I just sent him:
"
Hello- I was the individual who found what many believe are the potential glasses belonging to missing person, Matthew Greene. I've attached the photos I took upon discovery, as requested.
I would like to direct you, as well as Detective Hornbeck to a page in the SuperTopo Climbing forum- here you can find Matt's prescription details, and perhaps see if the glasses I found are similar or match.
Here is a copy/paste of the post from Ron, Matt's brother in law:
Aug 24, 2013 - 06:57am PT
Here's Matt's eye RXs from 2-1-13
Glasses:
OD - 2.75 - 0.75 x 175
OS - 2.75 - 1.00 x 005
Contacts:
OD - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 0.75 x 180
OS - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 1.25 x 180
Acuvue Oasys for Astigmatism
Hope that means something; my eyes are good so it's Greek to me.
Let me know if there is anything else you need from me.
Thanks,
Alex Xxxxxx
xxx-xxx-xxxx
"
Essentially I've relayed Matt's Rx info, hoping to expedite that process. We'll see what comes of it.
@Cragman, thanks, I'm interested to know.
Alex (x1n54n3x),
Just wondering. Did you give officer Hugelman of the MLPD original copies of all the in-camera images you took of the glasses with all the in-camera metadata along with them? Thanks.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
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WBraun
Tiffany (tdg119) created a thread more suited for encompassing this kind of discussion. Mammoth topography in regards to Visions (FindMattGreene)
Lets keep this thread on evidence that can be physically confirmed and verified; Conjectures based on physical evidence; and the consideration of SAR attempts and reports.
I'm not discounting anything.. I just want to help make it easier to find stuff of a certain category.
Thanks
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