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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 14, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
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Back when I was just a pup and an apprentice at US Steel American Bridge. we had a rush contract for this oddball high alloy heavy wall pipe that needed precision tapered buttress threads milled on the ends.
They sent me over to what we called the "light plate shop" that originally was built to construct Nike antiaircraft missile launchers, (and later was where about 2/3rds of all those pipe supports for the Alaska pipeline were built, no two were identical) to repair and wire up an ancient thread mill that they had resurrected from a bone yard somewhere.
One of the supervising engineers was there and I asked him what this was for. He went into an explanation as to how they were going to vacuum up manganese nodules from 20,000 feet of water with an airlift.
My response was that the pipe would last no more than a week if they were sucking sand thru it at the kinds of velocities that an airlift would produce.
He stuck to his story. I'm sure he knew no more than the cover story.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 20, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
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Lovegasoline said: "There is no logical consistency to Hedge's posts." Correct, which is why I totally gave up both reading most of his posts and responding to Hedge. Not worth the trouble to have him start babbling off topic nonsense. I don't think he reads more than the first 10 words of any post before he starts typing an illogical or off topic response which seems to be the first thing which pops into his head.
Interesting rant here in the Atlantic magazine on the subject for anyone interested. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/08/a-law-meant-for-terrorists-is-used-to-detain-a-journalists-partner/278799/
A Law Meant for Terrorists Is Used to Detain a Journalist's Partner
Power given to the government for one purpose inevitably ends up being used for other purposes.
Conor Friedersdorf Aug 19 2013, 7:30 AM ET
On Sunday, Britain used a provision of the British Terrorism Act to detain a man no one thinks is a terrorist: David Miranda, a Brazilian citizen and the partner of American journalist Glenn Greenwald. They held him for 9 hours at Heathrow Airport, denied him access to an attorney, and took all his electronics.
That alone is a scandal.
Authorities in various Western nations have been granted extraordinary powers to fight terrorists. This isn't a story about whether one agrees with Edward Snowden's decision to leak classified National Security Agency documents, or what one thinks of Glenn Greenwald's journalism. It is a story about whether sweeping powers passed with the understanding they'd be used against terrorists will henceforth be marshaled against anyone Western governments want to target, even if there is zero chance that they are associated with Al Qaeda or its affiliates. This is a story about whether national security journalism is already being treated as terrorism so that government officials can bring more powerful tools to bear against leaks of classified information*. And it's a story about the impropriety of targeting the loved ones of journalists in adversarial relationships with the government in order to intimidate them or others.
Said Greenwald:
...they obviously had zero suspicion that David was associated with a terrorist organization or involved in any terrorist plot. Instead, they spent their time interrogating him about the NSA reporting which Laura Poitras, the Guardian and I are doing, as well the content of the electronic products he was carrying. They completely abused their own terrorism law for reasons having nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism: a potent reminder of how often governments lie when they claim that they need powers to stop "the terrorists", and how dangerous it is to vest unchecked power with political officials in its name.
Worse, they kept David detained right up until the last minute: for the full 9 hours, something they very rarely do. Only at the last minute did they finally release him. We spent all day - as every hour passed - worried that he would be arrested and charged under a terrorism statute. This was obviously designed to send a message of intimidation to those of us working journalistically on reporting on the NSA and its British counterpart, the GCHQ.
As yet, it's unclear whether or not the U.S. government put Britain, whose spy agency has also been exposed and embarrassed by Edward Snowden's leaks, up to this. Congress should investigate whether or not Team Obama played any role. Only last month, the U.S. pressured European countries to ground the plane of Bolivian President Evo Morales in a thuggish reaction to rumors that Snowden was aboard the aircraft, so nothing is assured, save that Miranda has been treated badly and is owed an apology by the captors. "The thought of his being detained by the British police for nine hours because his partner embarrassed the American government really sickens me at a gut level," Andrew Sullivan writes. "I immediately think of my husband, Aaron, being detained in connection to work I have done, something that would horrify and frighten me. We should, of course, feel this empathy with people we have never known, but the realization is all the more gob-smacking when it comes so close to home."
With every day that passes, I grow more amazed at how many apologists the national security state has. It is transnational and increasingly unaccountable, with Western intelligence agencies and officials sharing more interests with one another than with their own legislatures/parliaments and citizens. Recall The Guardian's scoop on GCHQ from earlier this month:
The US government has paid at least £100m to the UK spy agency GCHQ over the last three years to secure access to and influence over Britain's intelligence gathering programmes. The top secret payments are set out in documents which make clear that the Americans expect a return on the investment, and that GCHQ has to work hard to meet their demands.
"GCHQ must pull its weight and be seen to pull its weight," a GCHQ strategy briefing said. The funding underlines the closeness of the relationship between GCHQ and its US equivalent, the National Security Agency. But it will raise fears about the hold Washington has over the UK's biggest and most important intelligence agency, and whether Britain's dependency on the NSA has become too great.
Was this 9-hour stunt GCHQ pulling its weight?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 21, 2013 - 11:32am PT
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35 years is the sentence.
They should of let him go.
and Made him Hedge's boss.
:-)
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 21, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
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All I'm really doing is quoting MSM sources and liberal blogs.
Why do you do that all the time?
That's not news.
It's garbage ......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 22, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
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When you guys start to focus your outrage where it belongs (the telco's and ISP's) you might have some credibility. Being outraged that the gov't might know a fraction about you that AT&T, Verizon, Google, Facebook, your bank, et al already knows is - I'm sorry - comical.
Well said, Hedge. The government doesn't care if you're cheating on yer
girlfriend, really. Maybe you would like to flatter yourself that you're
important enough to merit surveillance but you're not. They have more
important things to do. As much as I like to lambast the guvmint when it
comes to national security, something about which I actually know something
and some people, these are, for the vast majority, very good and intelligent
people doing important work of which few of us should have any knowledge.
You have no idea of the number of attacks that have been thwarted, nor should
you. Democracy doesn't mean every hand-wringing half-wit needs to know about this.
And democracy certainly doesn't mean that some snot-nosed E-3 should think
he should be the arbiter of what should or shouldn't be classified.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 22, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
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manning may be messed up, really bad. but something is terribly wrong with this country.
one of the first things manning leaked was this:
Manning released this graphic video of a U.S. Apache helicopter attack on a group of people gathered in Baghdad. Two were employees of the Reuters news agency. A member of the helicopter crew refers to the "dead bastards" he killed, and the crew lights up a passing van that stopped to help victims of the first round of gunfire.
Reuters unsuccessfully requested a copy of the video under the Freedom of Information Act, but only Manning revealed it to the world. An Army investigation into the attack, released only after Manning's leak was published, concluded that the helicopter crew had followed the rules of engagement.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/21/bradley-manning-leaks_n_3788126.html
apparently leaking the dirty truth of war is worse than killing some innocents and joking about it.
manning made the mistake of leaking more than that. he should have leaked just that and made a higher road stand. if they still would have convicted him then this is clearly not the america i thought it was.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 22, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
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2. The Reykjavik-13 cable
Far less known than the Apache video was this classified 2010 cable from the U.S. Embassy in Reykjavik released on Feb. 18, 2010. The first of Manning's leaks to be published, it caused an immediate sensation in Iceland for its frank discussion of U.S. indifference toward problems in the small island nation's banking sector.
The cable's release energized the activists in Iceland who edited "Collateral Murder."
3. The Iraq War Logs
As part of his work as an Army intelligence analyst, Manning had access to a wealth of sensitive Army documents about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Called SIGACTS (significant activities), in military parlance, they detailed nighttime raids and improvised explosives attacks with intimate on-the-ground reports from U.S. troops.
Manning gave WikiLeaks nearly 400,000 SIGACTS from Iraq. They were published in October 2010. The Pentagon had always maintained that it did not keep track of civilian casualties in Iraq, but the independent Iraq Body Count website used the SIGACTS to confirm and update its count of deaths in the conflict.
As of this month, the Iraq Body Count's Josh Dougherty related, the organization had added 4,000 deaths to its database as a result of Manning's leaks and was likely to add another 10,000.
"These and thousands of others like them are known to the world today only because Bradley Manning could no longer in good conscience collude with an official policy of the Bush and Obama administrations to abuse secrecy and 'national security' to erase them from history," Dougherty wrote on the group's website. "If Manning deserves any punishment at all for this, certainly his three years already served, and the disgraceful abuse he was made to suffer during it, is more than enough."
4. The Afghanistan War Logs
On July 25, 2010, just a month after Manning was arrested, WikiLeaks published 75,000 SIGACTS from the Afghanistan battlefield. The New York Times, which participated in their publication, said they offered "an unvarnished, ground-level picture of the war in Afghanistan that is in many respects more grim than the official portrayal."
5. Detention, abuse and torture
Manning's leaks included more than 700 Guantanamo detainee files, many revealing that the U.S. had little reason to continue holding its prisoners. The 250,000 State Department cables he leaked detailed U.S. diplomatic pressure on foreign countries to ignore or excuse extraordinary renditions carried out by the CIA in apparent violation of international law. They also showed that the U.S. routinely failed to investigate reports of prisoner abuse and summary execution by the Iraqi military.
"It brought this issue back into public consciousness again, which is a great thing," Shane Kadidal, a lawyer at the Center for Constitutional Rights who represents Guantanamo detainees, told HuffPost in June.
"And then with everything that Manning released, to some extent the volume of the material is part of the story," Kadidal said. "It's one thing to tell a few anecdotes based on a few items being leaked, but to be able to say across the board that most of the men who are there shouldn't be there, were people that could be safely released … that is pretty staggering."
6. U.S. complicity with repressive Arab regimes
It was no surprise to many living in the Arab world that the United States routinely collaborated with Arab dictators behind closed doors while proclaiming its commitment to democracy in public. Manning's leaks of sensitive State Department cables, however, laid bare the American hypocrisy in the Middle East. By some accounts, they served as a catalyst for the regime changes around the region that would come to be known as the Arab Spring.
In particular, the cables highlighted corruption within the regime of former Tunisian president Zine El Abidine Ben Ali. The first batch of cables about Tunisia was released in November 2010, two months before Ben Ali fled the country.
"Whether it's cash, services, land, property, or yes, even your yacht, President Ben Ali's family is rumored to covet it and reportedly gets what it wants," the U.S. embassy reported in a June 2008 cable classified secret. "With Tunisians facing rising inflation and high unemployment, the conspicuous displays of wealth and persistent rumors of corruption have added fuel to the fire."
you guys figure it out. whats worse? an army private who leaks this stuff? or the country that is complicit with torture at guantanamo? complicit with arab regimes who treat their citizens like dirt?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 22, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
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Poor kid. Tank fodder but he did violate his oath...
i agree with you. i can't imagine how hard it would be though to keep an oath when you knew that innocents were killed and covered up. seems like the oath should take a back seat to the greater truth at times.
we the people are fed propoganda as bad as the old USSR. only most russians were smart enought to know the difference and many americans are not.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 22, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
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Well said, Hedge. The government doesn't care if you're cheating on yer girlfriend, really.
Nothing like downplaying the truth.
What if the gov't cared that you were part of an organization that protests the illegal activities of a large corporation? And then they harassed you when you organized activities to protest the corporation?
Don't make me look up the cases where this type of gov't intrusion has been documented.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 22, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
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k-man, I would like you to look that up because I am quite sure you will
not find that the NSA or the CIA has stooped to any of that behavior. The
FBI likely did under Hoover but I doubt much of that has occurred since.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 22, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
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yeah reilly,
unless your muslim....or protesting the war....or part of an occupy movement....or....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 22, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
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hedge, the only proof i have is that you are a deluded idiot. all one has to do is read this thread to reach their own conclusions.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 22, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
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Manning released this graphic video of a U.S. Apache helicopter attack on a group of people gathered in Baghdad. Two were employees of the Reuters news agency.
I guess you never watched the whole unedited video.
A group of jihadis was actively engaging a dismounted Army platoon with RPGs and heavy machine guns. The reporters were taking photos almost over their shoulders.
The video was heavily edited for propaganda purposes and that's all most people have seen.
There's a difference between Manning and the NSA leaks. Manning dumped information wholesale that included things like names of translators, informants and allies, methods of detecting and disarming IEDs and had no regard for how many people it would get killed.
Hopefully Bubba will help him with his gender identity issues.
Snowden has so far been fairly circumspect in the information he's released.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 22, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
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I guess you never watched the whole unedited video.
A group of jihadis was actively engaging a dismounted Army platoon with RPGs and heavy machine guns. The reporters were taking photos almost over their shoulders.
The video was heavily edited for propaganda purposes and that's all most people have seen.
i would like to see the unedited version.
is it a problem for DOD to be transparent in the killing of innocents? why didnt they post it up? you know the reason why. because it does nto support the case for war. which is why manning realeased all that stuff.
but really, if an army pvt has access to all that can you please tell me where teh problem really lies? kind of a no brainer.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 22, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
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you are truly a moron hedge.
compartmentalizing secret and top secret information on a need to know basis is security 101. now we have manning and snowden both having access to information to way more than they should.
as a caring american who supports the NSA i thought you of all people would want them to be a little more prudent in their own security measures.
afterall, we cant have all those embarassing cables about icelend getting out now can we?
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Aug 22, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
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WTF, man? Name calling? Really? That's as far as you can carry your argument?
This is very funny coming from you Joe, as you are the most prolific name caller on this forum.
So with the above observation about name calling, what you are really trying to tell us, it seems, is that deep down inside you know your arguments are intellectually flaccid.
So why do you keep posting the same drivel over and over again if you must defend your arguments with ad hominem attacks?
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