Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of th

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BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 11:54am PT

@mika: if that standard was applied to every thread on here, nothing would get past a few pages.

@coz: I'm a nobody climber, we've never met but I know your name because of all the badass stuff you've done I've read about in books and magazines. Speaking of which, f*#k those rangers who took your drill and weed on top of Muir Wall.

As far as the names I mentioned, that's all information I've gathered from reading the various online threads, as well as people's blogs and Facebook/Twitter feeds. You can also add Kelly Cordes and Cedar Wright to the pro-chop list. What's also interesting is to read the discussions on this issue on the British climbing sites. Some of the guys there make the pro-chopping folks here seem downright modest in terms of what they are okay with! (for instance, one British old-timer stated that removal of all the bolts by any means or method of ascent was perfectly justifiable).

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 31, 2012 - 11:56am PT

Fortunately the lines drawn here are not geographic but cultural.

There are many climbs that some presume have too many bolts.

But the Torre is unique in that they were installed by an alpine Fitzcaraldo.

It just doesn't fit the standard paradigm.

But like I said before, there's not much law out on the frontier. Things get done.

Some route erasure attempts become the stuff of "major" controversy but, truthfully, amount to a tempest in a teacup.

Some avenging Italians could go chop some of those routes, but if they just abide nature will do it for them.

WBraun

climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:00pm PT

Cesare Maestri didn't care when he went crazy on the Cerro Torre.

K&K is the karmic reaction to Cesare Maestri.

Spinning wheels got go round .....

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:01pm PT

Why don't we all just sleep on this awhile?

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:12pm PT

"SS, regret's his actions and took notice for such, he didn't have to come clean, but he did, he is one of the greatest climber of all times who always stayed on the down low, probably because he is a modest man.

Give the guy a break!"

I actually respect what Steve did in coming clean a lot, it takes a bunch of guts to own up to something like that. My point was more that it seems a bit beyond the pale for one of the standard-bearers for the anti-chopping case in this situation to be someone who executed a chop-job on a less bolted route, by jumaring fixed ropes, crapping on the chopped ropes, and lying about it. You'd think after an episode like that, and whatever catharsis was obtained by finally spilling the beans, one would lay low on these sorts of issues.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:16pm PT

Coming clean? Does that mean he did his paperwork in triplicate? :)

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:17pm PT

@WBraun

as I wrote before...Maestri did NOT go crazy on Cerro Torre.
be more respectful concerning someone that could be your father or grand-father...and that climbed several routes that you and your heroes would never be able to climb with the shoes, clothes, materials of the 60s

was the CR what I consider a good route?
no, it wasn't

was Maestri insane or crazy?
No! respect an old and glorious man that is fighting against cancer...homo minor!

WBraun

climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:38pm PT

monaco

There's no disrespect.

I didn't say Maestri is crazy. I said when he went back with that compressor he went crazy for that action.

There's a difference.

We've all done crazy things in our lives at one point or other.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:39pm PT

A salient point that is raised from Haston's blog post (although he never mentions it specifically) is that a lot of the people who are discussing this, and particularly many who are objecting to the bolt-chopping (although certainly not all), are coming into the issue with a big-wall rock climbing perspective/background, be it from the Dolomites, Yosemite, or wherever (which also partly explains why there have been so many apples-to-oranges comparisons with places like El Cap, Half Dome, and The Chief). Many of the people supporting the action (although again not all) come from the "fast-and-light alpinism" perspective/background, where excessive drilling/bolting is completely alien to what they consider acceptable. For a person like Steve House or Rolo, for instance, the question isn't "400 bolts on Cerro Torre vs. 100 bolts on the Nose", it's "400 bolts on Cerro Torre versus the single-digit number (possibly zero) I find acceptable".

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:41pm PT

KKK did not climb ''by fair means''.
using 5 intermediate bolts and several bolted belays is NOT ''by fair means''

the brits know this point very well...and if they not clearly admit that they are simply loosing their bold ethics in order to follow folks

in such a useless activity as alpinism, that is a mere game (...sorry Mr. hamingway )...the rules of the game are really important.

do not exist something that is ''fair enough''...bolts are unfair...KKK climbed ''by unfair means'' and assumed they are the correct people to set the level (how many bolts/spits use and leave).
quite arrogant in my opinion.

do you want to minimize the Maestri (bad) effort?
do better...on virgin terrain (without any boly to chop AFTER anything goes wrong..)...

messner ''imposed'' is bold ethics in dolomites at the end of the 60s not erasing what his predecessors did...but climbing better routes....not doing acts of vandalism

show the correct way with positive actions...not by destroying the past and using unfair words for an old glorious climber (and a man!)

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:47pm PT

Monaco, they did climb a better route. They did climb virgin terrain.
They did it in a blisteringly fast 13 hours. That is bad ass.
They did leave bolts for belays and raps. But that is the standard descent route so what is the big deal.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:55pm PT

@philo

they did use 5 spits plus some spit belay...isn't it?
stop...this is not ''by fair means''

I've just said that...the messner example is clear.
do better without destroying.
do better far away others' routes
do better far away a ''ferrata'' that can used if something goes wrong

what they did is a good thing from a climbing point of view...not ''by fair menas'', but nevertheless impressive.
and after that a bad thing from a human point of view.

you can argue that Maestri did bad things from a human and climbing point of view...that's true.

nevertheless what KKK did is bad.

and two bad things do not means a good thing...they are bad. stop.

cheers,
matteo.

gimmeslack

Trad climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:21pm PT

Can I ask you a specific question? How do you explain that there are no bolts on or above the Col of Conquest?
Listen very carefully: When we attacked it in 1959, the north face of Cerro Torre was a solid mass of snow and ice. We went up it. Egger was the greatest ice climber in the world. We took advantage of this because the weather had been bad for three weeks and Cerro Torre was a sheet of ice. . . .

[Maestri reels off a string of obscenities.] But I don't give a [expletive] about all this. It has already been covered, goddamn it to hell! You can't understand.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0604/whats_new/cesare-maestri.html

Wouldn't it be sumthin' if they really HAD done the FA? Can't help but wonder. If he had, and then suffered all the subsequent crap, I could see why he would go back with a compressor, just out of spite...

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:33pm PT

From the same article linked above.

How do you respond to the climbers who, last fall, ascended Cerro Torre and now question the validity of your climb?
You mean Ermanno Salvaterra? I didn't take legal action against him for libel because I didn't want to damage mountaineering. Let me clarify: I fight on principle. If they don't believe me, if they question my climb, then I question the whole of mountaineering.

Salvaterra says he didn't find any bolts or traces of your passage above the Col of Conquest.
They are conducting a campaign against me in the press, so now I will sue them for libel and slander. Because I am tired, I have had it up to here, and I am fed up. They ruined my life.

Who ruined who's life?

I have heard that Maestri is always eager to sue in court any one who disputes him.
Good luck on suing Salvaterra and Garribotti.

Are some of you Italian climbers afraid you might get sued if you don't stick to the party line?

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:38pm PT

In your book, do you write about this line of pitons?
CM: I don't have to explain anything; I don't owe anything to anyone. They can invent what they want—pitons, no pitons, I couldn't care less. What I did was the most important endeavor in the world. I did it single-handedly. But this doesn't mean that I . . . that I reached the top, do you understand? Do I make myself clear?

Guilty as charged

TYeary

Social climber

State of decay

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:40pm PT

Don't know quite what to think of all this yet. I have some mixed feelings about the chopping of these bolts, yet I must admit, I do lean toward some ambivalence in this specific case. My sense of what is "right" has been tempered by Maestri’s willingness to step so far outside the accepted practices of the time, in order to achieve victory and vindication. It may be argued what Kruk and Kennedy have done is little different, except I would add that they were in no small way restoring the mountain to it's rightful status: that this was the "lesser of the two evils". “Who committed the act of violence against Cerro Torre? Maestri, by installing the bolts, or us, by removing them?” This quote says it all, and the pundits have to find the greater good. I sincerely hope that Kruk and Kennedy have the support and requisite strength to live in balance and comfort with their decision to chop the "bolts of shame." Greg Crouch wrote " I hope this isn’t what they’re remembered for.” Me too. For just as Maestri's detractors pushed him to an outrageous and ego driven adventure to avenge his honor, I worry that these two youngsters might suffer a similar fate.
TY

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:40pm PT

That sounds like he is claiming he soloed the route.
Won't his team mates be so proud?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:52pm PT

That sounds like he is claiming he soloed the route. Won't his team mates be so proud?

On the Compressor route the only one who led was Maestri. Perhaps this is what he was meaning. He reached what he considered the summit, ie the top of the rock, but not of the mushroom of ice.