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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Oct 11, 2016 - 03:27pm PT
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Shame to see it wither.
Or just Nature taking its course.
I suspect the thread may yet be watered by the blood of wizards.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 11, 2016 - 03:48pm PT
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After the garden of Eden, we headed downward bound!
Ecclesiastes 1:11 There is no remembrance of earlier things;
And also of the later things which will occur,
There will be for them no remembrance
Among those who will come later still.
But there will be an end of time as we know it...
Mark 13:32 But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 33 “Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Oct 11, 2016 - 04:33pm PT
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If it's true and time only moves forward, it makes memory and writing alternative instruments to that flow, ways of avoiding that passage. Such an idea only adds to the realization what a remarkable thing a consciousness that allows such an ability is. Besides mind we might also ask what is memory and what is the nature of a recorded thought? And how is it that the mind comes to violate the forward flow of time?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 11, 2016 - 04:40pm PT
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What is memory, Paul?
Electronics and information science, via flip flops, for eg, show that memory is physically realizable. Correct?
Carroll addresses a chapter to this. He refers to it as record(s) and recording (eg, memory).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-flop_(electronics);
With electronics, info science, control engineering and neuroscience as background, it is but a small step, in principle, to conceive of a network of neurons as a flip flop circuit.
Today in principle, tomorrow in a culture dish under a microscope?
....
The President in Conversation With MIT’s Joi Ito and WIRED’s Scott Dadich
"IT’S HARD TO think of a single technology that will shape our world more in the next 50 years than artificial intelligence."
https://www.wired.com/2016/10/president-obama-mit-joi-ito-interview/
"There’s a distinction, which is probably familiar to a lot of your readers, between generalized AI and specialized AI. In science fiction, what you hear about is generalized AI, right? Computers start getting smarter than we are and eventually conclude that we’re not all that useful, and then either they’re drugging us to keep us fat and happy or we’re in the Matrix. My impression, based on talking to my top science advisers, is that we’re still a reasonably long way away from that. It’s worth thinking about because it stretches our imaginations and gets us thinking about the issues of choice and free will..." -Obama
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Oct 11, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
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Paul: From Wiki
This last phenomenon, called the "psychological arrow of time", has deep connections with Maxwell's demon and the physics of information; In fact, it is easy to understand its link to the Second Law of Thermodynamics if one views memory as correlation between brain cells (or computer bits) and the outer world. Since the Second Law of Thermodynamics is equivalent to the growth with time of such correlations, then it states that memory is created as we move towards the future (rather than towards the past)
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 11, 2016 - 07:59pm PT
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Since the Second Law of Thermodynamics is equivalent to the growth with time of such correlations, then it states that memory is created as we move towards the future (rather than towards the past)
Muscle memory, practice over time, equals movement without contemplation, just action!
AKA Wired!!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 12, 2016 - 01:07pm PT
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re: "extended intelligence" etc....
"I don’t know if you’ve heard of the neurodiversity movement, but Temple Grandin talks about this a lot. She says that Mozart and Einstein and Tesla would all be considered autistic if they were alive today." -Ito
"if we were able to eliminate autism and make everyone neuro-normal, I bet a whole slew of MIT kids would not be the way they are. One of the problems, whether we’re talking about autism or just diversity broadly, is when we allow the market to decide. Even though you probably wouldn’t want Einstein as your kid, saying “OK, I just want a normal kid” is not gonna lead to maximum societal benefit. -Ito
https://www.wired.com/2016/10/president-obama-mit-joi-ito-interview
"That goes to the larger issue that we wrestle with all the time around AI. Part of what makes us human are the kinks." -Obama
"They’re the mutations, the outliers, the flaws that create art or the new invention, right?" -Obama
“The last thing we want is a bunch of bureaucrats slowing us down as we chase the unicorn out there.”
"Let me start with what I think is the more immediate concern... If you’ve got a computer that can play Go, a pretty complicated game with a lot of variations, then developing an algorithm that lets you maximize profits on the New York Stock Exchange is probably within sight. And if one person or organization got there first, they could bring down the stock market pretty quickly, or at least they could raise questions about the integrity of the financial markets."
"Then there could be an algorithm that said, “Go penetrate the nuclear codes and figure out how to launch some missiles.”
"If that’s its only job, if it’s self-teaching and it’s just a really effective algorithm, then you’ve got problems.'' -Obama
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cintune
climber
The Model Home
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Oct 13, 2016 - 01:09pm PT
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The fundamental difference between animal action potentials and plant action potentials is that the depolarization in plant cells is not accomplished by an uptake of positive sodium ions, but by release of negative chloride ions.
In case anyone was wondering. Hope all are well here.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Oct 13, 2016 - 01:59pm PT
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Oh boy . . . .
Looks like we need both a resident physicist and a resident Wizard here to add a spark to this thread.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Oct 13, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
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we might also ask what is memory and what is the nature of a recorded thought?
Hard to do better than to look to Eric Kandel:
In Search of Memory
Auf der Suche nach dem Gedächtnis (original title)
1h 35min | Documentary | 25 June 2009 (Germany)
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Oct 13, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
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The most interesting thread on ST, for sure
Well, I for one would agree. The discussions on free will, awareness, consciousness, and the wonders of the quantum world, not to mention the threat of scientism, keep me coming back.
Dirac's Dilemma
Another story told of Dirac is that when he first met the young Richard Feynman at a conference, he said after a long silence, "I have an equation. Do you have one too?"
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Oct 13, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
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Long silences can be productive.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 13, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
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Hey Moose, I've had this thought lately that maybe people who are good at offwidth climbing are also naturally smarter than the general population by a long-shot. So far, it is a thesis without evidence. But that (evidence) doesn't seem to deter the anti-science crowd, so I've been thinking and thinking how I can, you know, come up with something to bolster my thesis. Nothing so far.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Oct 13, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
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There are very few anti science people on this thread. Including IMO the OP and mike L.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Oct 13, 2016 - 08:08pm PT
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I've had this thought lately that maybe people who are good at offwidth climbing are also naturally smarter than the general population by a long-shot
Well, maybe the ability to analyze and twist one's self into appropriate pretzel shapes has something to do with intellect. That and various anatomical advantages involving body size and weight, lever arm configurations, and the patience of Jove to squirm upward centimeter by centimeter.
They may also be naturally more amenable to suffering, and thus obtaining spiritual purity. Maybe it's a religious thing.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Oct 13, 2016 - 09:54pm PT
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I've been grading, harnessed with various "honey do's" here at the ranch, and my mother is visiting.
I've been reading about shamanism and some of Jung's ideas about collective unconscious. I intend to use both set of notions to look at or view the creative urge, its processes, and seeing. Basically, I think it would be instructive to use what spiritual masters have had to say about seeing reality is and apply that to what artists are doing. Rumi (an islamic mystic) reportedly said, "Behead yourself! . . . . Dissolve your whole body into vision: become, seeing, seeing, seeing!"
Being an artist or artistic--whether you are a painter, a sculptor, a writer, a musician, a potter, an actor, a dancer, even a climber or a mathematician--seems to me to be about seeing, about vision. To see reality NOT in one way but rather in an unconstrained and open way, to see infinite possibilities, not buy into consensus reality, to doubt just about everything, is (to me at least) completely about seeing, seeing, seeing.
When I go to artists' shows and I corner an artist and ask them what they're up to, almost without exception, I hear technique, I hear how they were learning their craft technically, about exercising some act they had learned or were practicing. But what it means, the vision it expresses, the very being of it--whether it be a vision provided by science or that of a religious person or a painter or ceramic potter--that I hear hardly ever. That to me is the very experience as experience qua experience. There I sense the unconscious expressing itself in mysterious, creative, and marvellous ways that suggest new takes on reality, proving over and over that the nature of reality is that it can show up as anything. It is unbounded, indescribable, undefinable, unresolvable, and, well . . . empty of what we'd call real substance.
Gotta get back to work.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Oct 13, 2016 - 10:12pm PT
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To see reality NOT in one way but rather in an unconstrained and open way
How true for creativity. But sometimes difficult.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Oct 14, 2016 - 09:24am PT
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proving over and over that the nature of reality is that it can show up as anything. It is unbounded, indescribable, undefinable, unresolvable, and, well . . . empty of what we'd call real substance.
Reality is indescribable? Could you please give an example?
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 14, 2016 - 11:35am PT
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Perfect Minded
“Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.” (Philippians 3:15-16)
Earlier, Paul had noted that he was not “already perfect” (Philippians 3:12), using a form of the Greek verbteleioo. In today’s verse, Paul uses the adjective form teleios. Although the root of the word is the same, this particular usage is significant.
In verse 12, the Holy Spirit inspires Paul to use the past perfect tense of teleioo, rendering the translation “not having been perfected” and thereby recognizing that the end product of God’s salvation has not yet been completed. The adjective form, teleios, denotes the sense of maturity, both in our text and the other 18 instances in the New Testament.
Those of the family of God who are “mature,” even if we might be “otherwise minded,” are to expect that our Lord Jesus will reveal “even this,” or the prize that we are to focus on in Philippians 3:14. The “one thing” ofPhilippians 3:13 is so important that we must “walk by the same rule” and “mind the same thing” (today’s verse).
The Greek word for “walk” is only used four other times in the New Testament, and it describes marching in a row and following a prescribed order. We are to “walk in the steps” that Abraham exemplified (Romans 4:12), just as we are to “also walk in the Spirit” (Galatians 5:25).
Finally, we are exhorted to “mind” the same thing. Our thought processes are to be focused on that one thing that is most important—seeking the Kingdom first. May these clear commands find their way into our hearts. HMM III
http://www.icr.org/article/9554/
...Romans 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
"I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord."
Philippians 3:8
Spiritual knowledge of Christ will be a personal knowledge. I cannot know Jesus through another person's acquaintance with him. No, I must know him myself; I must know him on my own account. It will be an intelligent knowledge--I must know him, not as the visionary dreams of him, but as the Word reveals him. I must know his natures, divine and human. I must know his offices--his attributes--his works--his shame--his glory. I must meditate upon him until I "comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge." It will be an affectionate knowledge of him; indeed, if I know him at all, I must love him. An ounce of heart knowledge is worth a ton of head learning. Our knowledge of him will be a satisfying knowledge. When I know my Saviour, my mind will be full to the brim--I shall feel that I have that which my spirit panted after. "This is that bread whereof if a man eat he shall never hunger." At the same time it will be an exciting knowledge; the more I know of my Beloved, the more I shall want to know. The higher I climb the loftier will be the summits which invite my eager footsteps. I shall want the more as I get the more. Like the miser's treasure, my gold will make me covet more. To conclude; this knowledge of Christ Jesus will be a most happy one; in fact, so elevating, that sometimes it will completely bear me up above all trials, and doubts, and sorrows; and it will, while I enjoy it, make me something more than "Man that is born of woman, who is of few days, and full of trouble"; for it will fling about me the immortality of the ever living Saviour, and gird me with the golden girdle of his eternal joy. Come, my soul, sit at Jesus's feet and learn of him all this day. - CHARLES SPURGEON
...2 Timothy 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
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