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Prod
Trad climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
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OK, cool.
Now, did you READ what I wrote a few days ago??? Please answer this question. If your answer is "yes", I have nothing further to say. If your answer is "no", please go back and read what I said.
Because in the post above, you are telling me not to do something that I already told the world I would not do.
This is perplexing to me.
So answer the question, thus telling me which of the four plus one possibilities you are.
Hey Pete,
I know you are in the hot seat, but that post is a but rough. You know how these threads evolve. Finer points are easy to miss. I can say that Mr E is not an as#@&%e, or stupid. The little time I spent with him, I found him very fun and extra accomidating in giving me and my wife a tour of the Yosemite boulders.
Take it easy, and I look forward to reading both of the stories, yours and Kait and Ammons.
Cheers,
Prod.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 22, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
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One route on one wall and 1400 posts......amen.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
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Am I the only one who sees the story that Pete is proposing (overall history of the route, the controversy behind it, etc. as a feature story that is made more interesting by the 2nd ascent being a recent piece of news) and a detailed account of the 2nd ascent by Ammon/Kait as being two completely different things?
Since it's already been mentioned in this thread, suppose a climber (say Climber X) makes the 1st complete ascent of the North Ridge of Latok I. Obviously one would except Climber X to publish the story of that ascent in Alpinist or wherever. Does that preclude some writer-climber who's never got on the route from writing yet another historical retrospective of the attempts to climb that line?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 07:46pm PT
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Yes - Black Spider - you are the ONE AND ONLY PERSON IN THE WHOLE FREAKING WORLD who seems to "get it". Sheesh.
And I DID get on the route! For Ammon to say that I could not climb it even on his toprope is patently unfair. I made it clear that I cheat-sticked my way up the first pitch, with no help whatsoever from his rope. ["Cheat stuck"?] I then attempted to rehearse the first pitch on my OWN top-rope, and failed miserably. In fact, I never touched Ammon's rope. Tom did. He used it to replace the anchors on the second pitch, after securing permission from Ammon's brother Gabe. I was fully capable of failing miserably on the first pitch with no help from Ammon whatsoever.
Mr. E: Beer is always good! Especially on the bridge. I have been lobbying the shuttle bus drivers to rename stop #4 as The Centre of the Universe. So far I have one guy onside, but we need more.
I am hoping Ammon and Kait will share a little of the 2-4 I will be bringing them!
I have climbed 43 different El Cap routes, and the hooking on Wings of Steel is BY FAR the sickest and hardest I have ever seen. Too hard for me! Ammon has balls of steel, and evidently a fairly resilient shoulder!
Now Ammon - tell us the REAL story about the intra-cranial fluid rumoured to have been dripping from your helmet after your inverted solo fall on Surgeon General. Ammon is bad to the bone, nothing can stop him! Tom Evans told me he saw Ammon dangling unconscious upside-down, and called in the rescue. But Ammon eventually came-to, and not only finished the pitch, he finished the route!! DAMN!
I'm sooooooo happy that Kait and Ammon sent Wings of Steel! 29 years in the making! Woo-hoo!!
What's yer count, El Cap Pirate? How many different El Cap routes??!!
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jul 22, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
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Lovegas-
Nice use of "more important ".
Way to drop the "ly".
Really, thanks.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
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"I’d like to see him just forge ahead with full Peteness."
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!! Laughing pretty hard at that one, Neal!
Neal and I have climbed a couple El Cap routes together - barely. So if anyone knows what 'Peteness' means, it's Neal!
Neal is, of course, correct in what he writes above.
However upon this I will stand:
I verily believe Mark and Richard to have told the truth. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, I have found, suggests this. Huge amounts of research, past and present. Inconsistencies exist, of course - it's been 29 years - but the preponderance of evidence that I have found is highly in favour of Richard and Mark, and highly against their detractors. I cannot quantify this, and you will have to consider whether to take my word for it or knott.
Now, pay attention here:
Look back at the beginning of this post, and the many other WoS posts. Look at where I started in 2005. Look at what I thought. Can you read? One assumes so. WILL you read? That is another question.
I started out, like most everyone else, believing what was stated in the Strassman text. How was I to know anything different? [I use 'know' as a copula verb here] The first ascensionists of Wings of Steel were villains, scoundrels and liars.
Then Mark and Richard came on the scene, to once again defend their position. [The buggers are nothing if not tenacious, eh?] In spite of their rantings, their testimony contained the consistencies and the "ring of truth" that their detractors' testimony lacked. This did not go unnoticed by me. So I gave them the benefit of the doubt, met them, questioned them, tried their route, failed, questioned them some more. My conclusions? How much more can I say that I think they're cool, that I believe them, that I believe they were maligned, and that I'm happy to be their friends?
Yet in spite of my fervent, determined and detailed investigations, I am accused of being a sycophant, as though I am somehow being deceived or something. [You can call me most anything you want, but "stupid" is not one of those things] Anyone who has suggested I am a blind yes-man hasn't done his research and followed the story, otherwise he would have seen the change in my heart. Recall I was initially a doubter, a Hater, like the majority. I needed to examine the evidence first. I reached my current position after evidence-based research.
And now that I've examined the evidence, I stand behind my suppositions. And if I'm wrong, well, you guys can sh|t all over me, too.
But I believe Ammon's and Kait's findings will also support that Richard and Mark have told the truth.
"Ah bee-LEEV!"
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Jul 22, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
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I don't know if this has been posted before and dam if I am going to read through this saga again to find out. Interesting.
2003
PETER ZABROK
"The reason I solo is because I can.
Or is it that nobody wants to climb with me?"
By Sam Sacks
Two things stand out when you meet Peter Zabrok. The first is that he's goofy in a snaggle-toothed, big-grinned, trying-to-please sort of way. The second is that he's much smarter than the pages and pages of website propaganda he's written about himself would lead you to believe.
Still suntanned from his twenty-first ascent and sixth solo up El Cap, Zabrok's butchered climber's hands peek out incongruously from a navy blue suit. His hair is conservatively parted to the side and his tie is neatly knotted, but there is something about Zabrok, and perhaps it is the stuffed animal attached by a carabiner to his briefcase that leaves you wondering if the tie might be a clip-on. Just days away from haul bags, hooks and hundreds of metres of air, Zabrok is back at his day job as an insurance salesman in Oakville, Ontario. And the toy? A lucky charm he hauls up all of his routes named Pee Wee [sic] the Big Wall Crab.
At age 43, Zabrok has aided many of Yosemite's walls with younger hardmen like Chris Geisler and Sean Easton. His resume includes such high-end lines as Reticent Wall (A5 5.8), Jolly Roger (A5 5.10) and Native Son (A4+ 5.9). He has summitted El Cap 21 times by 21 different routes, most recently sending Lunar Eclipse (A4 5.7) and Scorched Earth (A4+ 5.9). But he has also ranted and raved about his career, bolting and an acrimonious divorce, on-line and in print, generating criticism for his brash tirades that has often overshadowed his impressive resume.
"Pass the Pitons" Pete pours another cup of joe at the Round Table - Excalibur - El Capitan
"I have a theory," says Zabrok. "If you are bitchin', you will have detractors. The hidden message here is that I have so many detractors I could be bitchin'. Or I could be a real jerk. Correlation does not necessarily imply causality."
Zabrok grew up in Hamilton and hammered out many of the province's best-loved lines alongside local legends John Kaandorp and Chas Yonge. His career began in 1979 but the bulk of his resume has been completed in what he refers to as his "free climbing retirement," or the years after his divorce, which appears to have been precipitated entirely by his love of climbing.
One of Zabrok's most controversial invectives involved a scathing attack on the first ascensionist who bolted Moby Fly, a short wall at the Niagara Escarpment's Cow Crag which Zabrok wrongly believed had been climbed clean by Dave Lanman. The bout turned into a longstanding feud between sport and trad climbers in the area. Today, with almost 20 years of hindsight, Zabrok is his usual barrel of contradictions, quick to admit his error and just as quick to pounce on the bolting malaise:
"There was nothing I could do to make up my wrong to the guy and he let me off the hook. Praise God and hallelujah," he says, wiping his brow. And then a moment later, he says, "I believe bolts to be cheating. I believe that the indiscriminate use of bolts can be indicative of cowardice. I believe that if you can't climb a route from the ground up you should leave it to someone with balls."
Despite the verbal attacks and the fact that during our two-hour conversation he calls three women including this interviewer, "hon," there is something charming at work in Peter Zabrok. In addition to his prolific caving and climbing exploits, Zabrok has a dubious alter ego named Dr. Piton, a derivative of his Valley nickname, "Pass the Pitons Pete." Dr. Piton, who Zabrok refers to in the third person, is a self-appointed wall doctor who offers advice on big wall climbing on and off-line in exchange for "help" in the form of novices who haul his bags to the base of routes. Much of this know-how comes from a book Zabrok edited by his infamous mentor, Chongo (Charles V. Tucker) who has written a 600-page tome entitled "Chongo's Complete Book of Big Wall Climbing."
"Dr. Piton writes cutting-edge big wall technology which has never been published elsewhere," says Zabrok. "There is a big vacuum in big wall and aid climbing information and Dr. Piton's fundamentals help more people get to the summit than ever before. When I got to Camp 5 this spring, there were five people waiting with empty bags to carry my stuff to the base. I used to have to pay people to do that."
Zabrok may be a guru to some, but he's quick to acknowledge his reputation for sloth. His big wall haul bag includes a ghetto blaster on which he cranks AC/DC, a solar-powered shower, a bottle of Napa Valley cabernet, and several cans of Guinness. He tries to avoid sending more than one pitch in a day and no trip is complete without his coffee press. "One of my goals is to achieve new levels of big wall leisure," says Zabrok.
But how does Zabrok justify nailing a big wall crack or riveting when he won't clip a bolt? "That's actually a good paradox," says Zabrok. "What am I doing clipping bolts on big walls or placing copperheads or pins - don't those scar the rock? Yeah, but you haven't drilled anything."
Zabrok makes the first ascent of Resplendence at Old Baldy in 1982
On the recent retrobolting of a Zabrok route named Resplendence the eponymous Peter has this to say: "It is a sad comment on the state of affairs of Ontario climbing that somebody would simply walk up and bolt something without giving it a second thought." The bolts have since been removed but were they filled to Zabrok's specifications with epoxy and rock dust? "I don't know," says Zabrok, "I'm far too lazy to go find out."
Sam Sacks is a climber and writer who lives in Toronto.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
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^^ Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!!
Profile published in Gripped Magazine. A perfect example of Peteness.
And it also has zero relevance to this post.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Jul 22, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
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And now that I've examined the evidence
WHAT evidence? You haven't been up there.
Edit: Pete, you should have just asked us and we would have been happy to work with you. We were pretty bummed to hear what you wrote before we even got onto Aquarian... put yourself in our situation and tell me you wouldn't be a little PO'd.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
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Ammon,
There are two kinds of evidence.
Firstly there is the hard evidence, the evidence of what's up there, on the rock. I have only seen the first two pitches, so I have only seen 2/13ths of the hard evidence.
But to me, this isn't a story about a piece of rock, it's a story about people - Mark and Richard. And this is the evidence that I have examined backwards, forwards, and sideways. This is the second kind of evidence - a sort of legal-historical proof. I can't walk up to the base of El Cap and prove to you that Abraham Lincoln wrote the Gettysburgh Address, or that Nero really was the emporor of Rome. I need to perform a different kind of proof for that.
The evidence that I have examined suggests extremely strongly that Mark and Richard have told the truth. I have found no evidence that they haven't. This is the second form of evidence, the legal-historical kind. This is "my" evidence. But it is incomplete without "your" evidence, which is the first kind, the hard kind, mentioned above.
I really hope that you haven't found evidence to suggest Mark and Richard have been untruthful, too. And I really hope you'll tell us what you found, and soon!
Because the hard evidence of what you found, is really the key to the whole story. The story is two parts - the rock story, and the people story.
Edit: Yes, Ammon, I know you and Kait are/were P.O'd, and she will tell you that I apologized to her the other night by way of Facebook instant message, that it was unintentional on my part to hurt your feelings re. the news post on R&I.
Ammon and Kait, it was never my intent to scoop you, nor steal your story. Please - if you are a little more sober than I am currently! - read my timeline above. Please understand how the sequence of events came together relative to the magazine, my idea to write the story, my immediate email to Annie. It only occured to me to write the story when you were up there, and the very moment I got the OK to do so, I immediately contacted Kait's mom to tell her. I simultaneously wrote the press release. I never even thought to ask you guys, and I'm REALLY SORRY dude. That was never my intent. I should have asked you, I didn't, and I apologize.
Similarly, it was never my intent to talk about the Second Ascent, because I know nothing of it. That is, has been, and always will be, yours and Kait's story to tell.
Please may I state for the record - I have always wanted to, and still want to, and still hope we can, work collaboratively on this! There is still time. Our deadline is Wednesday. I can type like a mofo, in case you haven't noticed. Much of my research is done, and I can get my 5000 words written in time.
Your story is a sidebar to mine, yet it is fundamental. Or more likely mine is a sidebar to yours. The there is a synergy here, where the whole two together are greater than the sum of the parts separately.
Edit: In fact, I can type so fast, you and Kait could tell me the story over the phone, I could type it out as you speak, email it back to you, you could correct it, we could edit it, back and forth, finally back to you, then you could submit as yours. I feel bad about what happened, and would gladly do what I can to help. And don't forget your photos! Good value in those!
I think that if you and I and Kait work together, we will have a truly awesome story. I would love to discuss this with you, via phone or email or instant message. I am fully supportive of you guys getting your say, and have told the magazine as much. He wants to get your story, pay you for it, and your photos, and everything. I think it'll be a great story, and Duane Raleigh told me he thinks so too. He also told me to STFU, but I still believe in this.
I hope we can work together. I would love to work together on this. I hope we can come to some sort way to make this happen.
Read the posts above, and you will see many people asking us for a combined effort. I think it would be very cool. I believe in negotiation, reconciliation and foregiveness.
And beers. Beers always help.
And once again, I'm really thrilled you guys sent this, cuz I sure as hell couldn't.
Cheers and beers,
and with Olive Branch extended to Kait and Ammon,
Pete
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
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Petey, regarding your statement,
Arg. Nobody reads anything. Grumble grumble grumble. You make an unambiguous statement about intent, crystal clear, but does anyone read it? Does anyone synthesize it? No. They read nine hundred subsequent posters, all who disregarded it, and then feel they have to add their two cents' worth.
I don't think that's entirely accurate. As I posted a couple pages ago:
One way or another, I want to read Pete's article regarding the history of Wings of Steel just as much as I want to read Ammon and Kait's account of the SA. As far as I'm concerned, this controversy's been around almost as long as I have, there's room enough for two articles that I see as complementary to each other.
I do agree with the assertion that it would be good for PTPP to stick to what he knows, and not comment on the SA - it seems to me that having solely earned that accomplishment, it's Ammon and Kait's tale to tell, and only they may speak of it authoritatively.
At the same time, and given his legwork into personally investigating the climb (as reported in this thread over the past 5 years), I do believe that PTPP has a great deal of information about Wings of Steel, its history, and its controversy. I would like to see both articles published concurrently.
So, as you can see, in addition to reading and understanding your post, I also look forward to an article written by you on the history of Wings of Steel, alongside Ammon and Kait's second ascent report.
However, I rather suspect that nobody read my post either, on account of it being too damn sensible. Thus, as per Knuckles' suggestion, I'm having a drink, and then going back to edit it with some kind of unfounded slander against Bridman and cause a controversy so that hopefully someone will also read the saner and more logical parts about it as well.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
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"Why didn't you simply wait and ask them BEFORE you made your decision Pete?"
Cuz I was an impetuous dumbass. As per above, it was a mistake, and I apologized.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Jul 22, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
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I don't see the second ascent as a "sidebar" as Pete mentioned. Poor choice of words there methinks (Pete should blame that on the alcohol or risk digging his hole deeper). Far as I'm concerned, out of principle alone, it's the second ascent that should take the lead in any article...with the history stuff woven into the whole blow by blow spray-fest. =) We're climbers dammit, not dusty old historians.
The press release by Pete stole the thunder from A&K. Lame. His apology seems appropriate. Hope things get patched up between the parties and all his rambling doesn't get in the way. =) Everybody around here wants to read both stories. Be even cooler if they can join forces.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
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Everybody around here wants to read both stories. Be even cooler if they can join forces.
Quoted for truth.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 23, 2011 - 12:31am PT
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Everybody around here wants to read both stories. Be even cooler if they can join forces. I agree, a collaborative effort on all involved would be awesome, everyone has a part of the story it seems. Even the crapper could tell their tale!
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Jul 23, 2011 - 12:33am PT
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I look forward to reading both of the stories, [Pete's] and Kait and Ammons.
I'll read Pete's for sure... but seems like we already know what slant that will have. Most interested in reading Ammon and Kait's story since I have no idea what it will be. I kinda hope they don't get any climber's help writing it. Then I would like klk to write a summary. :)
I still contend that there was a controvery once anyone made their way up that slab (unless they were free climbing it). And, recent developments and articles don't change that. Whether Ammon did the SA or not, whether Pete thinks he has a story worth telling, whether the FA party was treated badly or not... there still was a controversy regarding style and ethics. Again, due to the testosterone (estrogen?) blow out things did become aggrandized... but if that hadn't of happened it wouldn't change the fact that something highly controversial had just occurred.
What I don't like seeing, in my conversation with modern climbers, is that most don't care about what happened before them. They don't even get that they are riding on the coattails of those very ones. That if no one had climbed or developed climbing gear before... that these modern climbers would walk into Yosemite Valley... look around... think about climbing something... reconsider... and go home.
And, as for the clashing of camps... that's what we've had for self-regulation for many years. And, to a certain extent it does keep us from completely derailing. Ethics and style need to be discussed... I'm much more interested in that than the personal lives of Richard, Mark and Pete. And, I cringe at the posts with quotes or comments about their personal lives.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Jul 23, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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I don't know much about the business side of climbing publications but I'd love to see Ammon and Kait's story done up Alpinist magazine style. Take the time to write it well, maybe grab a good photographer and head to the Valley for some hi-grade shots of El Cap and the route, some of Ammon and Kait, and add those to the pics that Ammon and Kait took during the SA. I dig it.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Jul 23, 2011 - 12:51am PT
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Lovegasoline: Sounds exactly what we have in mind for our documentary film... you'll have to give us some time, though.
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