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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 30, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
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You couldn't be more than a generation removed from your asian or indian subcontinent homeland Phule. If you don't like the american way you can always go back to where the poverty levels support environmental conscious. Save the tigers or something buddy.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 30, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
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The famous Keeling Curve, or Mauna Loa CO2 record, is now complete through the end of 2013 (annual average 396.5 ppm -- the highest any human has seen). Putting the Keeling Curve in longer context, we get more of those darn hockey sticks.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 30, 2014 - 01:11pm PT
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For the more distant past we need proxies, unlike these CO2 measurements from ice cores and air. Comparably high CO2 levels apparently occurred in the Miocene 10 to 15 million years ago. For example, this study by Tripati et al. (2009):
The carbon dioxide (CO2) content of the atmosphere has varied cyclically between ~180 and ~280 parts per million by volume over the past 800,000 years, closely coupled with temperature and sea level. For earlier periods in Earth’s history, the partial pressure of CO2 (pCO2) is much less certain, and the relation between pCO2 and climate remains poorly constrained. We use boron/calcium ratios in foraminifera to estimate pCO2 during major climate transitions of the past 20 million years. During the Middle Miocene, when temperatures were ~3° to 6°C warmer and sea level was 25 to 40 meters higher than at present, pCO2 appears to have been similar to modern levels. Decreases in pCO2 were apparently synchronous with major episodes of glacial expansion during the Middle Miocene (~14 to 10 million years ago) and Late Pliocene (~3.3 to 2.4 million years ago).
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 30, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
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The GEOCARB model provides a deeper-time picture of global CO2 levels (Berner and Kothavala 2009), but with low temporal resolution: a 10 million year time step. Their calculations suggest much higher CO2 levels in the distant past when, among other things, the sun was younger and dimmer, making the greenhouse threshold for glaciation much higher.
The authors summarize their GEOCARB results:
This type of modeling is incapable of delimiting shorter term CO2 fluctuations (Paleocene-Eocene boundary, late Ordovician glaciation) because of the nature of the input data which is added to the model as 10 my or longer averages. Thus, exact values of CO2, as shown by the standard curve, should not be taken literally and are always susceptible to modification. Nevertheless, the overall trend remains. This means that over the long term there is indeed a correlation between CO2 and paleotemperature, as manifested by the atmospheric greenhouse effect.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 30, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
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The BK01 paper has many technical details, but their intro paragraph offers this thumbnail sketch of GEOCARB III and its predecessors:
In 1991 a new model for the evolution of the carbon cycle and of atmospheric CO2 over Phanerozoic time was presented based on inputs of geological, geochemical, biological, and climatological data (Berner, 1991). This model was later revised in 1994 and given the name GEOCARB, whereupon the revised model was labelled as GEOCARB II (Berner, 1994). The purpose of the present paper is to amend the model to include findings in the earth, biological, and climatological sciences that have occurred over the past seven years. Most of the findings are related to chemical weathering on the continents.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 30, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
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Ah yes, an ongoing attempt to rewrite geologic and human history to get rid of that troublesome lag where temperature rises always precede atmospheric CO2 increases across all temporal scales.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 30, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
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Putting the Keeling Curve in longer context, we get more of those darn hockey sticks.
Neat stuff. But it looks more like a sickle to me. What are you, some kinda damn communist?
Thankfully, world class ignormamuses such as the Chief and Ricky the siding contractor are little men with little positions in the world. They have zero ability to influence policy or science. So, much like our old buddy RockJox, they are simply bloviating fuktards raging against the wind. They will remain in their isolated enclaves, stewing in their ignorance, and providing endless entertainment (well, if egotistical morons entertain you..I personally get a kick out of em, remind me of ol Bubba down the dump scale) to those capable of reading and understanding the science.
Thanks for the quality input Larry. Some of us do appreciate the insight and latest from an expert in the field.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 30, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
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Dear #1:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 30, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
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Is this a legitimate temperature series? I don't have the Law Dome temperature reconstruction at hand (it's a different dataset) but it's easy enough to find references in the literature. This one from Goosse et al. (2012) looks useful as it compares a number of millennial Antarctic ice core temperature reconstructions, including Law Dome, showing each reconstruction individually (top) and their average compared with a previous reconstruction, with simulation results, and with uncertainty suggested by core-to-core variations (bottom).
Fig. 9.
a) Temperature anomaly (°C) reconstructed from different ice core records: DML (light green), Taldice (yellow), Siple (red), Law Dome (magenta), B25 (violet), EDC (black), Taylor (dark green). b) Mean of the temperatures reconstructed from all the ice core records (AIT composite, light blue), a previous reconstruction based on ice core data (dark blue, Schneider et al., 2006) and the mean temperature anomaly southward of 70°S in the simulation with data assimilation (green). Additionally, the 7 estimates obtained by performing the mean over only 6 of the 7 records are also displayed in grey to illustrate the uncertainty of the reconstruction. A 101 year running mean and a 21-year running mean have been applied for panel a and b, respectively. Reference period is 1850–1980. (For interpretation of the references to colour in this figure legend, the reader is referred to the web version of this article.)
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 30, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
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Three things to keep in mind about ice core temperature records:
1) The top of the core is never really the "present," and could be decades to a hundred years or more ago. Sometimes this fact is buried in research papers, because the ice-core researchers did not imagine how their data might get (mis)used for political arguments. Sometimes they defined the "present" as 1950, and even then the first year is -95 or 95 years before 1950 (Alley's famous GISP2 reconstruction).
2) CO2 is well mixed in the atmosphere, so ice core CO2 records can be taken as an indicator for global CO2. But temperature is not well mixed, so ice core temperature reconstructions are imperfect proxies for temperature at that particular spot on the ice sheet. This will be some mix of global, regional and local signals, with careful analysis needed to untangle.
3) CO2 is measured directly from air bubbles trapped in the ice, whereas temperature reconstructions are calculated from isotope ratios. Their chronologies are complicated, not a simple matter of both being in the same place and hence the same time (gas bubbles diffuse). So the exact timing of CO2 and temperature changes relative to each other is a nontrivial research question.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 30, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
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Good start Ron, but that list doesn't represent but a small portion of the crony capitalism (make that green investments) payoffs from the Chicago regime.
Meanwhile its drill baby drill on private and state lands. Considering the difficulties the treasury is encountering in pawning off low interest paper (see My IRA or Mira that potus mentioned during SOTU) to finance the growing debt, royalties and taxes from increased federal land usage, i.e. drilling, mining and timber, will eventually follow.
How is the billion dollar molten salt tower down in Tonopah doing? Its completion seems to be delayed.
See Larry's last post for the ongoing attempt to rewrite Temp/CO2 histories.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Jan 30, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
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Yo dudes! Be fair now. One tax payer benefited from all that fake green investment. The campaign committee of the Oval office serial vacationer and golf player collected millions in legal kickbacks.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 30, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
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with ZERO benefit to any tax payer in the country..
The plants in Indianapolis continue to make batteries.
Jobs for taxpaying citizens have no benefit. Who knew?
the power plant the loan built has a long-term agreement to sell electricity, and its investment will be protected no matter what happens to the parent company.
No benefit, even to those employed within.
the factories were sold to Johnson Controls (JCI, Fortune 500), which is expected to keep them open.
Again, jobs, but according to Rong, they have no benefit to ANY taxpayer.
Do you even read the sh#t you post? Goddamn world class morons, Rong Chuff and RickyTickyNumpy, representin for the Ignoramus Tribe yo.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 30, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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various Chinese entities who took them jobs back to their homeland The plants in Indianapolis continue to make batteries.
Indianapolois is in the Chinese homeland. Who knew?
You are an ignorant, bloviating fool. Kindly f*#k off ankle biter, because nobody asked you little feller.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 30, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
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Rong, read your own goddamn cut n paste, clownboy.
the power plant the loan built has a long-term agreement to sell electricity, and its investment will be protected no matter what happens to the parent company.
Should we disregard the rest of your regurgitated pap too? Or just the inconvenient parts that blow your entire "argument" (such as it is), out of the water?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 30, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
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President Barack Obama is sticking to a fossil-fuel dependent energy policy
hardly an extremist eco freak...
in fact, why are you not praising the President for sticking to fossil fuel policy, chief?
isn't that exactly what you have been arguing for, and also against the eco liberals?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 30, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
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All the more reason campaign reform is THE ONLY WAY....But then, you never signed my official petition..
of course I did not sign it
because I did not read your thread, seeing as how I have no interest in anything you have to say
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jan 30, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
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Ron,how much do you think we have given[not loans]to oil ,gas and coal companies in the last 40 years ,those alternative energy grants and loans do not add up to 2% of the subsides to FF companies.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jan 30, 2014 - 07:28pm PT
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Alternatives are a sound "Product",and there are plenty of folks willing to get off the Oil tit,subsidized or not.
Chef, I have told you before,you are retired,go tell all 200 million of them there hypocrites the same.
What does your Ridgeline run on?
Rick,that solar plant is cranking.
http://phys.org/news/2013-09-ivanpah-solar-california-energy-grid.html
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