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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 11:55pm PT
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I'm still trying to figure out if posting to this thread is "in the interest of science"
There is no proof or disproof of God, or gods, or any other religious belief possible. By construction, religions hold a consistent and constant world view that is about "Truth."
While there is no "proof" in science, there is disproof, so ideas in science can be tested and can fail the test. Science as such changes and our understanding improves. Science is about knowing, not about "Truth." The science of 1000 years ago, of 500 years ago, of 100 years ago, of 10 years ago, of even last year may actually be different than the science of today. We know more now than we did then...
...you may not care to know, especially if it is counter to your particular "Truth." It is unlikely that anything that appears in this thread matters.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 12:05am PT
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I said "you may not" which is very different from "you do not"
certainly you understand the difference, and the irony of your post...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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"jstan. We have people on the sight that went from believing as children to not believing. Questions for those who have made this transition. How did it come to pass? How did it affect you? As you made the transition were you at any time unable to cope."
A few years back, I was sitting home contemplating the upcoming surgery on my left knee and decided to flick on the TV to catch the cable news at the top of the hour.
It was on the Court TV channel and I was about to punch the button to the news, when a middle aged man a bout my age, being interviewed for a special 'Investigative Reports' makes the statement,"they use to look into my eyes as if I had somehow willingly helped, right before he killed them".
He was talking about his father, and how he and his sisters, believed his father was a serial killer that singled out 8 year old boys. And they were attempting to prove it).
Well that first statement,"they looked into my eyes as if I had something to do with it" stopped me cold, as I flashed back to a time long ago, right after I turned eight years-old (May 1957).
We were living in a rural upstate New York town, Norwalk/Norfork, in an old farm house renovated into a duplex, my mother, father. sister, brother and me on one side, about 15 kids and 4 adults on the other. My best friend lived up over the hill and down the road on a real farm.
Every Saturday afternoon, like clock work, I would take off down the road and up over the hill to visit my friend. A farm was an exciting place to visit at eight years old.
Well this one afternoon,I was on the way over to my friends farm, when a man that was known in the area suddenly appeared, with two young children and a lady.
I had only met him on about three or four occasions near our house, when he seemingly appeared out of the blue, waded his way through the gaggle of children and singling me out would with a few brief words, make me feel special, and then within a few minutes be gone.
So, when he invited me to go along with them, for a hike, that afternoon I happily accepted.(I never would have if it was him alone I believe, but under those circumstances, with two other kids and there mother being with him, my guard was down).
Well we hiked up this little hill into the woods and before we got thirty yards I new something was not right. The happy go lucky banter suddenly turned cold. We stopped in a little clearing with her blocking my way of escape from behind, him staring down at me with a hideous sneer on his face.
I don't recall all of what he said he was going to do to me, just the last part, about when they found my body they would think that I was run over by a train.
I remember turning to the boy who was on my right thinking how could you do this to me, I immediately realized that he was as much a victim to this as me. His eyes were flicking from side to side attempting to avoid contact and his own fear was evident.
I remember thinking, he's only six years old, he couldn't help me anyway.
The little girl was directly behind him, standing stiff as a board staring at his back.
I then pivoted a little more facing the lady and recall thinking, what? You are a mother, and your not going to do a thing to help me?
She had a look on her face, as if she was looking at no more than some pesky fly that had been caught in a spider web, fate sealed.
She let out what I can only describe as a sigh of disgust, and turned her head away. I took one step in a half hearted attempt to flee, but stopped cold.
I new it was hopeless, I had walked into a trap and there was no escaping it within the power of a barely eight year old boy with somebody straight from hell looming directly over him.
Let me back up here a little bit and let me explain the circumstances that led me to do what I did next, and I believe saved my life.
When I was in grammar school we were given the choice to go to any of our respective places of belief for one hour a week at the end of a school day or stay in class for secular activities (I believe the choice my family made saved my life).
Being Catholic my family opted for me to attend 'catechism' once a week were I learned about Jesus and the gospel stories. It may sound silly, but these stories and especially the one where He gather up the little children, and tells them how special they are, brought my young heart to believe that there was something special about this man.
I recall coming to the conclusion that there was no Santa Claus by age six, although I kept that belief to myself for several years, and went along with the program, for my little brother sake. But i had definitely not yet closed the door so to speak in regards to this Jesus.
So, as I stood there that fateful afternoon, with true evil incarnate looming one foot behind me, I called out with a plea to a Person that I will never forget.
I simply cried out "Jesus please help me" No words can describe what happened next. No words, that I have at least, can describe the supernatural peace that engulfed me at that moment.
And then I heard a voice, not audible, more like a strong thought, that said just walk over to that path, and follow it to the road, and that will take you to your house.
And so I did, as simple as that. I remember walking in past my mother, busy at the stove, and on into the living room were I lay ed on a couch and contemplated what to do next.
I stayed in that house for thirty days, never leaving once. I never told my family what had happened. I was protecting them.
You see I find this very difficult for me to describe and to share with anyone, and even more difficult for you to understand or believe.
You see there was something else there that day, you couldn't see it, but you could certainly feel it. It had a name, it was an angel of death.
I remember thinking one morning, after a particularly long night alone up in my room, as I glanced at the early morning rays of light shining through the corners of the windows. It could come right through there, just like those bands of light.
I understood what spirit was because I had met both good and evil that afternoon. Well, I knew I stayed indoors for thirty days because I recall the doctor telling my mother that they couldn't find anything wrong with me(I new they wouldn't) and her responding there must be, he has been home sick for thirty days.
The next day I remember standing by the screen door as the lady and kids that lived next door were piling into there car asking me if I would like to go along for a ride into town. I agreed. and I will never forget when she announced as we were barreling down the road that first we were going to stop at the man's mother's house.
That very same man, evil incarnate himself. He had been electrocuted at work and was recuperating at his mother's. The next thing I remember is stepping into her living room alone and closing the door behind me. He was sitting on one end of the couch, wrapped in bandages from head to foot, looking like a mummy, his mother on the other end.
Call it what you like, I call it faith, but I had no fear whatsoever. I walked up to him and stared into his deep black eyes for the longest time thinking this man is as good as dead, he will never be able to hurt me or anyone else ever again.
Nothing at all was said, and I have no idea what he must have been thinking. Suddenly his mother let out a long deep sigh, breaking my concentration and I spun around and left.
Not giving much thought to those events again until many years later. All I can say is this, I had no doubt who this Jesus was after that experience. He was God. Plain and simple.
I would go to church on Sunday's. Didn't know what the priest was talking about (it was all in Latin) or why we stood up and sat down over and over again. They had pictures of Jesus on the walls, a reminder of His Agony on the cross, and they seemed to know infinitely more than I new about God, so I went. And I never forgot the love that those precious little old nuns shared with me when I was just a little boy.
Well, all of that slowly changed. It had allot to do with something called racism and the general inequality of life, and lies taught as truths by the Catholic religion.
My father was a carpenter, born 1903 in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia,Canada.
As he grew older, the work became less frequent. We moved 18 times between Kindergarten and twelfth grade. So I was privileged to the experience of meeting allot of different people.
As I grew older my perception of how the world should be (since God made us all, I could not come to grips with the fact, that He could have allowed these things to exist, and my expectations of things, and view of Him as being all wise and all powerful began to crumble).
Although I never lost my belief of Jesus as being God So, I did lose considerable trus and I came to a definite crossroads at 18 years old. By then the only time I used His name was in conjunction with the word damn, or something worse.
Just keep in mind that, at that point I had never read a word of the bible, the only knowledge I had was from the Catholic Church.
I recall slipping out of my bedroom window in the middle of the night when I was in high school because I was so filled with rage at God and swearing, because He allowed racism to exist and other issues, that if I saw His face when I died I would spit in it.
So as I grew older I grew further from Him, blaming every thing that what was wrong with the world on Him. Why did He create a world with so much heart and chaos.
The one issue and the one moment that initiated that turning was when I was 12 years old.
We had moved Sand Diego,Ca. when I was 9yrs and from 9-12 spent many a afternoon in a library that was down the street. And came to love this two little old librarians who were very kind to me. They were white I might add.
The elementary school I attended was pretty evenly divided. Between the races, no majority, but primarily black, white, Hispanic.
I remember one after noon one of my best friends, who was coming home with me for the first time. We were on our way to little league practice. And invited him, and at first he refused, I insisted and reluctantly agreed.
He sat on the couch and my mother brought him cookies and milk. I changed my cloths, grabbed my bat and glove and, gulped down some milk and cookies and we headed out for practice.
The next day during recesses and lunch break, all these little black kids(kindergarten,1st graders) were coming over and tugging on the back of my shirt and saying, "Steve Knight said we can come over to your house anytime we want"!! Well I didn't have a clue what was going on.
Until 2yrs later when Steve,two other friends who were also black, after school one day stopped at that library.
I just want to make it clear that that in my mind at that racism could not exist. My fourth/six grade teacher is probably the man that has had the biggest impact on my life outside my father.
His name is Mr. Cain!
Mr. Cain was a black man!
I, and most every kid I new cherished Mr. Cain.
He had a big influence on my life.
This was 1958-1961. Of course I heard people talking about it and saw what was happening in the south on TV. But I new it would all blow over soon and the south was far away.
The Jesus I new would,t let something like that last for long.
Well, back to the four of us outside the library.
We stopped at the library because I had insisted on it. I Wanted show them a book I had been reading, big picture book. They refused to go in.
I persisted and eventually won out. I'll never forget the looks on those two old librarians faces as the four of us came through the door. me in front and my three friends behind me. With their hands behind their backs, and their heads down.
It was a look of hate. Those two women who I so much admired had degraded my three best friends in such a cruel, callus, shameful way. That we just turned around and walked out. They were not welcome there.
These were ladies that I assured my friends were the kindest woman I new.
I remember as they got on their bikes we all had our heads bowed by then. Me from shame. Irecall Steve simply saying "we're going home now John"!
Well needless to say I was devastated and heartbroken.
The four of us like all kids talked about what we going to be when we grew up!! We had dreams, it all came crashing down that day!
When I was thirteen we moved to Magna, Utah.
There was a Ute Reservation just west of town and I became friends with a boy the same age of myself that was from the reservation. He would tell me how the Mormon's looked at them as dog's That was the word he used. Said they told Him he would never be able to go to heaven. He was Catholic'
Well one Saturday a friend (Mormon) had invited me over to his house. We first went an visited another kid from our Jr.High School. I remember my friend as Telling me that this kid was a pagan. And rambling on about this Mormon beliefs of this and that. Definitely looked down on him'
Well he leaves and we are walking balk to his place and he makes the statement "at least he's not a catholic, their the devils..." so at that point a said " I am a Catholic". Well I have never seen such an 180 turn of affections in all my life. Cursing and spitting and dog this, and how they, Mormons were not allowed to have devils on their property.
Rural Utah was more than90% Mormon then outside the reservations so when I re turned to school I got a taste of what it would be like to be the only black kid in an all white school in the South at that time.
We only stayed there for a few months thank God!
We moved back to Cali 1965, my first year of High School, I was happy to have Steve Knight from my youth attending my school. Steve always was allot better baseball player than I.
Steve played center field. He was expected to get a scholar ship for college. Steve was a happy man.
Steve's mother was proud of him. He didn't a father. Had always lived home alone with his mother.
Steve was the kindest kid I ever new never fought, would walk away instead.
Smiled and laughed allot I made him laugh, that made me feel good.
One day I was shocked to here that Steve and another white kid had gotten into a fight. At first Steve wouldn't fight, then they said the white kid (the school was 95% white) called Steve's mother a bad name. Steve lost.
They were both sent home.
The last class of the day that Steven had walked the four miles home and died on his front porch waiting for his mother.
They said the cause of death was walking pneumonia!!!!!!!
Walking pneumonia? I sincerely doubt that!
He was beet and kicked to death by this vicious racist white kid! Plain and simple!
I have other stories about racism, maybe I will include them later.
So by the time I was 18f I had faced a lot of turmoil so to speak.
And had sort of put Jesus on a back shelf. He came into my life at 8, and I new he was God. But I couldn't understand why he had made a world like this!!
I remember when a teacher once asked the class what they thought of church.
I parrot-ted an answer that I had some disc jockey on the radio
"People go to church to get shot in the arm, for the same reason junkie's do! It makes them feel good"!
Of course the only church I had ever been to was a Catholic one. And they told me if I ever went into any other one I would go to hell!
But at that point new one thing I would never go back to a catholic one.
And I did know that Jesus was God but I didn't know were I stood with Jesus
I had taken His name in vain time and again' Lost faith in going to the priest and telling them my 'sins'. One time it would be five hour father two hail Marys. The next time twenty hail Mary's, ten hour fathers, and five act of contrition's. And I had only done half the'sins'.
Well fortunately I ran into this Christian girl with whom I spoke to for about half and hour. And didn't a thing about what happened at 8yrs old just asked her about some of the things I had done and said since then.
She just kept saying God loves you and will forgive you of every thing.
That was her whole message, God loves you and will forgive you of anything.
She gave me a "Four spiritual Laws" tract and I went home and read it. I read it, and believed what it said.
I said a simple prayer asking Him to forgive me of my sins, for I had many.
And to come into my heart and take over my life!
He came flooding in. Taking this incredible burden that had been building, off of my shoulders and an indescribable peace and love into my heart.
I hope this sheds some light on some of your questions.
Please consider this, Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship.
Thank-you for taking the time to get this far.
PEACE AND LOVE!!! TripL7.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 21, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Seems like TripL7 has some enter/return issues.
Ed H: so we're against proselytizing now? seems that there has been plenty of that from the faithful here, why not from the minority science folk? If any of the local scientists threatens to strike me down with a real or metaphorical bolt of lightning, I swear to ... that I'll listen and be good.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 21, 2009 - 12:23am PT
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Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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Bewildered by the three modes of material nature, the scientist of the twentieth century calculates the beginning and end of the universe in his own way.
The velocities of air and light are taken into consideration by the material scientist, but he has no information of the velocity of the mind and intelligence.
The soul is hundreds of thousands of times finer and more powerful than intelligence. Thus we can only imagine the velocity of the soul.
Bewildered by duality, they drown in the ocean of niscience.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:26am PT
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Thanks Mighty!!! We learn something new everyday!!
Hey!! Honest!!
PEACE!!! TripL7
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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I miss you all......each and every one of yo out there. I enjoy this thought provoking thread and each of your posts. I barely skimmed the posts tonight, it's late and I've been gone again out of town and TOMORROW I actually get to climb at JTree. Leaving super early from here, but I will be back in the real world of ST on Thursday or Friday. God willing of course. Love and Peace on a Sliver of a Moon Night. :D lynnie
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jstan
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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777:
Thank you for your comment. I know it was hard for you to write it.
I asked those questions because GO, a person whose opinion I value had cautioned me as to how I was discussing religion. He said, if you will, “John, you know not what you do.” Your experience suggests GO was right and it is up to me to discover how I shall let this affect me. It is a decision.
Perhaps I should tell a story also. When nine years old I was given the job of preparing the fields for planting. One evening after school I was pulling the springtooth drag up too steep a hill and the front of the tractor came up so fast I knew I had two to three seconds at most. I sensed what to do in time and hit the clutch. I hit it in time and the front dropped back down. A little more and the tractor would have rolled onto me.
What I took away is that it can come at any time and when it does you will not have much time to think. Ever since I have tried to look ahead. You have to be ready.
The other story concerns a time in my twenties when I did not look ahead. On a July day in Yosemite Joe and I were climbing Sentinal. Since it was so hot and we wanted to finish quickly we wore T shirts, shorts and carried nothing else. A thousand feet up we met heavy snow driven by high winds. We either kept moving on the way down or we would freeze. At the end of the first rappel I found a single old self drilling bolt. The only alternative would have been to pendulum over to an inside corner that would very likely have not taken a stopper, the only nuts we had. If I had tried to back up the bolt with a nut in the corner we might face a pull down problem. If so we would freeze at the end of the next rappel. And Joe was freezing even as I was thinking. When both of us were hanging on that bolt I had to face the fact I had made the decision for Joe as well as for myself. It was a tough one. The bolt held.
Each day we learn lessons to be applied during all the subsequent days. But there are never any guarantees. I don’t know what I should say 777.
In 1960 I did drive three days between Syracuse NY, where I lived to get to a school taught by Seumas MacNeil to be held on Cape Breton. When I finally got there the young lady told me Seumas had been delayed on his trip from Scotland and would be a week late. When I asked what there was to do in the meantime, she said Cape Breton offered ocean swimming. I, of course, asked what the ocean temperature was. With absolutely no expression on her face she said, “43 degrees.”
777, if you were an ocean swimmer while on Cape Breton, I seriously doubt there is anything on earth that could stop you.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 21, 2009 - 02:09am PT
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Ed,
I truly enjoy science, especially evolution, and the explanation it provides for the organization and phenomena that surrounds us. Also, at least, I know that god exists since I can see so many manifestations of it/her/him/them. god is a part of quite possibly every human society. Perhaps ironically, the existence of so many diverse and sometimes conflicting gods makes me deny the existence of God.
What came before nothing, and will I experience anything after I die? I can't say, and I think that there are many more practical human problems to solve. Then again, pure science has led to some amazingly beneficial things. Also, I greatly admire the people who are working on the questions. Stephen Hawking's explanation of why deja vu can't exist comes to mind. I wish I could reiterate it.
Maybe "the" belief is simply my nature, our nature. My final tally.
god? a qualified yes or no, depending...
creationism? no, but there certainly are some amazing stories, and I value the understanding that most every group of people has taken a shot in the dark to explain it.
edit: Some groups have more trained participants working to find the answers than others. Ideally, seekers from all groups should be allowed to enroll and thrive. And like you said, the answers may change!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 02:16am PT
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Ed Hartouni -- "It is unlikely that anything that appears in this thread matters."
Everything in this thread matters. There was a conscious reason for posting for whatever reason the poster had.
Everything has a conscious purpose in life.
And they said there is no such thing as consciousness, only chance, chaos, and pure random.
No intelligent design. All thoughts are just random babel then.
Their intelligence has been taken away by this such stupid logic.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:38am PT
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Werner-
Thanks for referring to me as a dog gnawing on a bone! Although the teaching says that we can only become enlightened in a human body, many dogs I know are at a far higher state of spiritual development that a large portion of the human race, so for me it is not necessarily an insult.
However, I would like to point out that the consequences of your argument against materiality are all too evident in Nepal and India with their attendant poverty and illiteracy. If one examines who benefits from this backwardness, it is of course the Brahmin priestly caste who profits most. I say this of course, as someone who knows and loves the place (3 years in a Hindu village in Nepal and 12 trips to India).
Meanwhile, a number of modern Hindu teachers such as Aurobindo, Vivekenanda, Yogananda and Sai Baba have pointed out that both east and west need a better balance between spirituality and materiality.
Humans could meantime learn a lot from the dogs about loyalty and cheerfulness. Of course Hindus recognize this is the festival of Kukur Tihar where dogs are venerated.
Om namay kukur, I say.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:02am PT
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jstan!! Thanks for the insight and the interesting stories!!
I should have looked closer in regards to the context of your request,sorry.
Yes, it was hard to write. I only finished the first half of the story, but I think I will leave it at that for now. Except I should explain that the middle aged gentlemen at the beginning of the thread (investigating his father!!) was the six year old boy in my story. Amazing but true.
Sounds like your partner on Sentinel could be Joe Fitchen?? I also had a much similar epic on the Steck/Salathe' when I was in my twenty's. Partner was Dave Stutzeman. Early April, similar condition's bailed from near the top of the flying buttress. One 50m rope. Minimal gear. Ended up down climbing 50%. Got over to the right of the main route last part of the descent. One manky bolt, last rappel. I made the decision to retreat, he opted to continue on, Dave got the short straw. I remember him saying "you don't know what your getting yourself into!" He was right.
It' interesting you should mention the ocean swimming on 'Cape Breton'. Loved it. Even though I drowned when I was seven (summer '56') at the mouth of the Margaree River, Belle Cote'. Me and a bunch of kids patched up this old row boat we found at the shore. Got out about 50 yards, right over the deepest part the channel, boat starts taken in water, kids start jumping out one by one. Last kid looks at me and says "time to swim" I said "don't know how". I'll never forget the odd look he gave me just before he dove in. Don't remember much after that. Just seeing my older (13) cousin paddling like all get out in his little rowboat that he made himself. Sick as a dog for a whole week. By the way, family moved to Cali when I was 9 and promptly learned how to swim. Another big ocean that had lots of promise of adventure, learned to surf. Went out at Black's during the swell of the century, Dec. 1969. Thirty (30) foot faces. Another epic day. Dumbest thing I ever did in my life! Well there was the row boat and of course Sentinel.
Your a fascinating man John, nice meeting you here, God bless you. Sincerely, TripL7
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:25am PT
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Imagine that you have never learned a spoken language. What would you mean when you say "consciousness" in that case? You can not hear a voice telling you there is another moment coming.
jstan-
Interesting question. In fact there have been several cases of feral children, often raised (pleased note Werner) by dogs, who had no spoken language and if they were more than 5 years old, were never able to acquire it. Should we treat them as less than human or simply handicapped humans? I think the answer is obvious.
As for dogs, mine anticipate getting a treat or going for a walk when I use those words to them and they also know their individual names.The fact that they can anticipate the future though they do not use verbal language, probably indicates that like the apes, they do have a primitive verbal structure in their brains, just no vocal apparatus to express it. Whales and dolphins meanwhile, seem a bit more advanced along these lines. Verbal consciousness would seem to be a continuum then.
Anthropologists have long struggled with how to measure intelligence in preliterate people. One way perhaps to test feral children's non verbal consciousness is through art and music, modes of testing which have had some success with preliterates.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:52am PT
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Ed-
It seems to me your recent explanations have been particularly clear and cogent. Along those lines, I found the fall issue of Discover yesterday which is devoted to the human brain. In it I learned where in the U.S. the centers of brain research are, which I hope to make use of when I retire since some of them are looking to do experiments with experienced meditators.
One thing I learned that I did not know before, is that the brain, probably the pineal gland, produces small amounts of a natural halucinogenic, DMT. This discovery certainly explained at least one category of my own internal experiences. The serotonin circuit in the brain explains another, so bit by bit, we are discovering the biological bases of spiritual experiences. I think that much will be known in our lifetimes.
What no one can explain yet, is why these experiences seem to only occur when one is concentrated on a spiritual subject or engaged with a spiritual discipline? The way to test this I suppose is for someone to develop a completely secular method of mental concentration and discipline to see if the same results can be obtained?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 07:09am PT
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jstan!!! I took a closer look at what GO had suggested to you in regards to coping mechanisms.
I just want to let you know that at that fork in the road I was at (the bitterness was at that point directed at God). I was simply hardening my heart to the fact that God met up to all of MY expectations.
At 8 years old He, without a shadow of a doubt, showed me He existed. That's about as far as my knowledge of Him went for a number of years. And that was the problem, I formed an image of God the way I felt He should be. And I greatly abbreviated and ended my testimony at that point.
So just one question. What is that one thing you are going to have to decide?? Give up on trying to convince people like me, Lynne, and Werner that there is no God because it would be counter productive?? If you could prove such, than we would simply be like you or DR.F or any of the other agnostics/atheist that is posting here. But maybe I am missing something, implied, or otherwise regarding what GO was suggesting.
Let me suggest this. Simply ask Him if, and I am stressing the word if. Simply say I don't know if you exist or not, but If You exist I do ask You to come into my heart(life), and mean it. Plain and simple!! Don,t you agree if Jesus is God and there is a heaven and a hell, eternal i might add. That you would be a fool if you don't allow him that much wiggle room so to speak? Believe me he will respect the request. Because that, my friend, will be considered faith. Because you will be expecting an answer if He truly exist, to come into your life and change it for the better. The God that made the sun, the moon and the stars, is fully capable of revealing Himself to you if you ask Him. PEACE.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 21, 2009 - 08:15am PT
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TripL7-
The flaw I see with your request is that it is framed in a Christian context. I have plenty of Animist, Buddhist, Hindu, and a few Jewish friends, who have had conversion experiences having nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity. I think jstan or anyone else should make the search however seems appropriate to them - or not.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 08:37am PT
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"by eating from The Tree of Knowledge"
Norton, look again!!!
It is called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil!!!
This tree was about, knowing about, good and evil.
Not about gaining general knowledge or wisdom.
Prior from eating from this tree, there was no knowledge of evil, because it didn't exist in there lives up to that point. They had knowledge of good. Everything was good!! God was good!! All the knowledge needed!! But God didn't want robots/puppets, he wanted their voluntary love and trust. Not so much unlike us. So He made one simple request.
The sin was that they wanted to be like God!! That's the lie that Satan told them. If they ate from the tree they surely would not die!! They died spiritually and began the insidious process of physical death. Said God was lying to them and just didn't want them to become like Him. Just like Satan, same sin Satan got booted out of Heaven for. He said, told all the angels, that he was going to be like the Most High. Sad but true.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 21, 2009 - 08:53am PT
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the mystery sure is enveloping huh.
no hints to its cause lie in the bible. though the creators of the bible prolly had good intentions, those have been wrecked by the successors who've wrapped their ignorant bliss around its message.
wars, killings and a general hard-heartedness has ensued.
the dark corner of the mystery which is a tiny bit enlightening, might keep itself tidy in a wee peyote seed.
limping along in a constant state of mediocre,
nordic.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:02am PT
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HE-BE BE BE BE BE!
I'm glad I got that out!
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