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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:58am PT
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Healyje, I'm fine with much of what you say, but not this:
free climbing ended on encountering the impasse of a blank head wall ending the [natural] line
Yes, our dream of an all-free route ended there. But we continued the climb -- our route, our choice -- in a style time-honored since the FA of the Dome itself by George Anderson's bolt ladder in 1875.
"Natural line" is an interesting idea. Because right above the bolt ladder Sean found a line of natural holds that connected clear to the top of the Dome. The way we found them, and the way we chose to protect them -- that's the issue this thread raised.
Are we bad boys or visionaries?
The defense would like to introduce into evidence a 20-foot stretch of the climbing on the upper wall. Any 20-foot stretch you like; the prosecution may choose. The jury -- our peers -- is now invited to sample the climbing on said 20-foot piece of handsome stone.
Unfortunately, Half Dome is unwilling to part with any of it's 20-foot stretches of magnificent stone, and technical limitations would anyway prevent us from posting that stretch of stone here on SuperTopo as "Exhibit A." May I suggest, then, that we adjourn this court and re-convene the jury on the upper slabs of Growing Up?
Such a tease.
And since skill level is not the crux of deciding who's our "peer," who gets to vote, the chosen 20-feet might sample the last pitch, for instance, which is 5.6. I have suggested that any climber who is interested or curious might rap in and sample the climbing on the upper wall. Feel free to go beyond sampling. You may enjoy -- even revel in -- that shiny slab. A thousand feet of it if you have the 5.11d skills.
If your skills are modest, you are nonetheless also invited. Drop a top rope on that final pitch, rap in and climb the 5.6. You too get to fun hog on a piece of this wall. You too get to add your voice to deciding if this is a worthy route, if the result is worth the "taint."
A number of you have been pointing out that what constitutes a taint has shifted as climbing has grown up. I'm no expert on ethics, but people who are a lot more schooled in it have pointed out that in the current academic thinking, situational ethics has trumped absolute ethics. In my little brain I take that to mean that Thou Shalt Not Kill unless maybe Well, OK In Self Defense. I guess that means that slippery slopes surround us.
Pretty uncomfortable, sure, especially if you happen to be an absolutist or a high judgment type, as I mentioned upthread. But I didn't make this up, it just seems to be a quality of reality as I see it. Of the reality pouring out of our heads, trying to make sense of the reality surrounding our heads. So please don't shoot the messenger.
The idea of dropping a top rope (TR) on the upper pitches just for fun leads to some interesting spots. Anyone who has seconded a stronger leader on a cool pitch will know the opportunity. Someone upthread mentioned the ankle-breaker mantle on Nutcracker. I happen to like leading it, but it could be TR-ed. Nothing to keep me or anyone else from TRing the last pitch of the Nose too.
Now, it seems that folks have been dropping ropes quite a ways down various El Cap routes. Top roping moves to see if a free climb might lurk there. Now I don't know, but I'll bet it would be pretty easy to just drop in some pro while they're at it, pro that could be clipped later climbing by. I'd guess that many people lurking on this discussion could help to enlighten us on that if they choose. The audience is listening.
I didn't start it; this here slippery slope's got a lot of footprints on it, and some of them appear to be the cutting-edge free climbers of our time. I just took this a few miles up the Valley, over onto a shining wall that I wanted to play on and not to die on.
I'm not interested in any peer judgment on my person. My heart knows, just like Santa knows, when I've been bad and when I've been visionary.
As far as the climb goes, the jury is still out. I would suggest that touching the stone is a healthy way for you, our peers, to "come to grips" with this.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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BTW, for other pansies out there. Doing some pitches of Kor-Beck and climbing pitches of Space Babble on TR while rapping that route is a lot of fun. Any 10a follower could enjoy all but the bottom pitch or two.
That's after the "Public Service" types get around to replacing the sick anchor bolts.
Peace
Karl
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 10, 2008 - 12:12pm PT
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"Are we bad boys or visionaries? "--DR
Doug, FWIW, neither.
You and Sean had an idea, exercised it, and left the climbing world with a new route on the SFHD. Simple. Now it's up to the people climbing it to decide it's FUN level.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
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Bob D, I am not the doom and gloom type and I certainly do not hope for, as you put it, grim results.
Kman, my response was based precisely on the man's words, plain and simple. And fwiw I have not come close to suggesting this route be removed, either by Sean and DR or anyone else.
I have my opinions about the effort however. Those are mine and this is a place to express them. I have not said anything on this thread I would not say to you or anyone else face to face sitting around the campfire.
Lucky me, I get to go climbing for a while now and will be nowhere near a computer...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 10, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
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Doug wrote: I didn't start it; this here slippery slope's got a lot of footprints on it, and some of them appear to be the cutting-edge free climbers of our time. I just took this a few miles up the Valley, over onto a shining wall that I wanted to play on and not to die on.
This is what Joe and some others seem to not to be able to digest and if you know history why Jim Erickson comment is relevant today.
Why shouldn't re-examine styles?? What is the better route that benefits the climbing community....GU or Karma...one with reasonable protection and hard, quality climbing or one with bad protection and death potential falls??
This is not a slam against Karma as I respect their efforts and talent...the telling factor for me is the number of ascents in the 20 odd years since the first.
Ksolem wrote: I have my opinions about the effort however. Those are mine and this is a place to express them. I have not said anything on this thread I would not say to you or anyone else face to face sitting around the campfire.
And I would love the chance to sit, drink a beer and talk to you about this and other things. Maybe at the next Facelift...
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Apr 10, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
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Doug,
Is it true that when you did the first clean ascent of Half Dome’s NW Face with Galen and Dennis Henneck, that Galen insisted you bring a hammer just in case? And you told him it was in the bottom of the pack, when it wasn’t. I still have a copy of that National Geographic article that Galen wrote. As a young climber that ascent inspired me. It was something to emulate.
In the future climbers will benefit from all the hard work and the vision. They'll remember the beauty of the line and the rock when they climb GU. What will be inspiring is when two climbers hike up there and climb it in a day. That will be something for young climbers to emulate- and you guys paved the way.
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NinjaChimp
climber
someplace in-between
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Apr 10, 2008 - 12:56pm PT
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Bob d'Antonio said, "This is not a slam against Karma as I respect their efforts and talent...the telling factor for me is the number of ascents in the 20 odd years since the first. "
I agree, while I have drooled on several occasions while staring up at Karma and even hold illusions of wanting to someday climb it, I haven't learned a thing from the route, with the exception of how to be intimidated, and neither has anyone else (aside from the FA party). I would venture a guess that in 20 years a lot more people will have directly learned something from GU than from Karma. What they'll learn and is that even a good thing are up for debate. Personally, I think have the routes of two contrasting styles is a good thing. I don't think it needs to happen everywhere but here in the center of the climbing universe perhaps it is good for climbers to have the opportunity to examine routes that are polar opposites, side by side, and allow them to make their own decision on which style is better. Then they can take their new knowledge back home with them...
Just my two cents thrown into this circular argument, which is looking more and more like a turd circling the drain.
-Justin
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:17pm PT
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DR, another nice post. Sigh...some of us are just more gifted writers than others. At least I didn't sleep through ALL my skooling!
Bob, I too will look forward to meeting and not avoiding, but not going out of my way to discuss this topic either. I will be moving to NM this summer and I hope you'll drag me up something that won't make me puke sometime.
Now...where do I find those anchors on top of SFHD? I do believe I'll go up there and do a little toproping...I'll report back with my findings.....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
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DR said,
Are we bad boys or visionaries?
i would posit neither. just climbers who ought to be doing it first and foremost for yourselves with a secondary consideration for others to come (as far as your style is concerned).
i think visionarie is a big word when rapp bolting has been around for decades but if your hat is that big fine, whatever.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:49pm PT
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DR wrote
"Are we bad boys or visionaries? "
For better or worse. history seems to indicate that these terms are not mutually exclusive.
Visionaries try things out of the box. Jardine pioneered many techniques that he was dissed for. Some are common practice today, some are still dissed.
No visionary has perfect vision. Time will tell.
Peace
Karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:52pm PT
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I have not said anything on this thread I would not say to you or anyone else face to face sitting around the campfire.
Thanks Ksolem. Totally understood. You bring the wood, I'll bring the frosties...
~~~
Yes, DR manages yet another fine and thoughtful post. Proving again that he has an uncanny way of keeping his keel down in these stormy seas.
The audience is listening.
That reminds me of a sticker I once saw on Garcia's guitar. Only it said The enemy is listening.
OK, no relation...
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 10, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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"
i think visionarie is a big word when rapp bolting has been around for decades but if your hat is that big fine, whatever."
So you agree that rap bolting a big wall is nothing new and of note?
post 1221....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 10, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
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K-man wrote:Yes, DR manages yet another fine and thoughtful post. Proving again that he has an uncanny way of keeping his keel down in these stormy seas.
Maybe that same voice (DR) who help bring in another style of climbing almost 40 years ago will again be a voice to show and understand a different way of how we climb.
Survival I would love the chance to hook-up and go climbing. Where are you moving too?
On another note...what about Bob Dylan winning a Pulitzer...amazing!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 10, 2008 - 05:14pm PT
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DR, keeping his keel down, I like that. Wish I could say the same all the time.
Bob, Albuquerque, last couple days of June, but going up to climb with some old pals from the way back machine in RMNP after 4th of July, back at the end of the month. Things will get more sane and slow down a bit after we get settled.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 10, 2008 - 06:00pm PT
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BG asked:
Is it true that when you did the first clean ascent of Half Dome’s NW Face with Galen and Dennis Henneck, that Galen insisted you bring a hammer just in case? And you told him it was in the bottom of the pack, when it wasn’t. I still have a copy of that National Geographic article that Galen wrote. As a young climber that ascent inspired me. It was something to emulate.
Yes, it's true. Hammer and pins. There's a still photo in the video Vertical Frontier about Valley history that shows Dennis and I kneeling in the dirt sorting gear. We both have slightly over-enthusiastic grins 'cuz, hmmm, we seem to be peering into a stash box checking for vital supplies. Some things never change.
Thanks for mentioning being inspired. It's amazing how many climbers over the years have said so.
I've written about different parts of that story and don't need to repeat myself, but a couple of things seem relevant.
To us clean climbing was way beyond an environmental crusade or some moralistic imperative. It was a great game. It was exciting and FUN to take on the uncertainty and even a bit of danger. We didn't know, climb after climb, year after year, that we could keep pulling it off. Especially in the Valley where cracks were harder to fit stoppers into: flared, rounded, and parallel. Ever since cams came along it's been nearly impossible to look back and appreciate how inventive and bold clean climbing was with only passive gear. A lot like modern tele skiers can't get it how we skied 45 degree gullies on skinny skis driven by floppy leather boots.
Anyway, Dennis and I had been making first clean ascents and FAs that were clean onsight for years. We worked our way up through the East Buttress of Middle to the Steck-Salathe. We knew we were ready. Galen hadn't been focusing on climbing clean, didn't care as much, and anyway was totally absorbed in photographing. So we sandbagged him by leaving out the pins and hammer.
We were inspired too by Reinhold Mesner's quote, fresh at the time, about "not carrying your courage in your rucksack." Now this part gets ironic in light of Growing Up. Because in context Messner was referring to not carrying a bolt kit in his rucksack. Everybody listened because he was the hot alpine climber of the day. But we could see that while he was right for the Alps, what he was saying made no sense for the Valley.
Lemme restate that: Messner was flat wrong for Yosemite. We had great routes going back decades that could not begin to exist without bolts. The Apron, Tuolumne, the Nose, Salathe Wall, Snake Dike...
So there was a certain, uh, dramatic tension between our local experience and the ethical gauntlet the great Reinhold was laying down.
I'm just saying that no matter how well intentioned, or in what a booming, stentorian voice they are issued, blanket ethical statements gotta be taken with a liberal shaker of salt.
I'll go back to Ron Kauk's deceptively simple words to Sean and me: "How are you going to go beyond your ego to work with the nature of the rock itself?...you gotta use common sense."
Broken record, I know, but please go up there and check it out for yourself. See what the nature of the rock itself whispers to you about Growing Up.
You might even have fun.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 10, 2008 - 06:38pm PT
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Bob,
> Why shouldn't re-examine styles?? What is the better route that benefits the climbing community....GU or Karma...one with reasonable protection and hard, quality climbing or one with bad protection and death potential falls??
This is not a level comparison, because the reason Karma is scary / dangerous (for both leader and follower) is the sharp dike, not because of the way it was bolted or how many bolts there are. A better comparison is with Southern Belle.
> This is not a slam against Karma as I respect their efforts and talent...the telling factor for me is the number of ascents in the 20 odd years since the first.
Also, I wouldn't lean too hard on number of ascents to decide on how a route "benefits the climbing community". Otherwise, you might conclude that easy, sport climbs with short approaches benefit the most. But I think what you meant is for a given potential route (to control for difficulty, quality, approach, etc.), it could be bolted in different ways which would result in different amounts of traffic. One flaw with this concept is that it would advocate bolting of cracks, because then the route would get more ascents (by people who can't afford to buy cams, say). But since you imply popularity is just one factor, I think you agree that it is not the only factor; there are other considerations.
It could be argued that some routes are enjoyed by people who do not even climb them. For example, they might enjoy the story of the first ascent or repeats, even if they are not good enough to do the route. This is similar to the concept of people who enjoy the idea of certain wilderness areas existing, even though they do not visit them. Sort of an enjoyment at a distance.
It does seem unfortunate that Karma has not been repeated, but once you start talking about the rope getting sliced on a fall by either leader or follower, and the topo says 5.11d runout, that is going to cut down the interest considerably. If there were bolts every 6 feet, which should reduce the rope slicing chances to about zero, it still might not get much traffic. Would it benefit the climbing community more? I'm not sure. I'm sure it would get more complaints about impact than ascents, although talk is cheap as usual.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 10, 2008 - 06:44pm PT
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hahaha... Whoa! You guys are still at it?!??! Sheesh! hahaha
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 10, 2008 - 10:39pm PT
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Ha!! Gawd, R&I cashing in on our itty bitty Sh*tty committee!!!
That is too funny. Your summary got called up to the bigs Russ, no sh*t!
But will more people read R&I, or will the conversations just get bigger here on ST? Doug, you sly devil.....you'll be selling a book soon, won't you?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 10, 2008 - 10:47pm PT
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One thing I don't understand is why the "popularity" of a route is some sort of measure of it's worthiness. If you look at the majority of the climbers entering the sport now, and those who come from climbing gyms, they want routes that are technically challenging, but also have closely spaced bolts. So, should we make all routes in this style?
My guess is that a 5.9 sport route with bolts closely spaced gets way more traffic than a bomber 5.9 hand crack of similar length. Does that make the 5.9 sport route a better climb because it is more "popular"?
It just seems like a slippery slope to try to justify the existence of routes by their popularity. Why should a FA party have to justify their route in the first place? If the FA party is honest about their motives then the route should stand as an example of that FA party's climbing style and ethics. As we have done here, we can discuss the merits of the chosen style and ethics. But, that is about it.
Bruce
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