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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
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Maybe I missed something but why would the contents of Matt's car be unavailable to him when Norco Goodyear was closed? Did they really keep the car inside the locked-up shop when it wasn't being "wrenched"? Is there a fenced-off secured storage area outside? They would know Matt was trustworthy and might give him a combo or key to access his car at odd hours. Or Matt may have asked the garage to keep his car in an unsecured area.
Someone at the repair shop will probably recall the parking arrangements at night. Sorry if this has been covered, and recommend adding it to Split's documents.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
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I think that we determined, after some back-and-forth, that his helmet was in the tent. Was his other ice axe also in the tent?
Ron or Tiffany, do you happen to remember this? Who retrieved his gear from the campground, or do the police have it? Is there an inventory of what was with the tent and what was in the car?
If the other ice axe and helmet were in the tent, that would argue against the idea that he cached his gear for safety while going for a brief run. (And as I said above, it might argue against the notion that there had been theft from the campground storage.)
Why cache one ice axe and leave the other one and the helmet in the tent? If he was that concerned about theft, did he cache his gear (or bring it with him) every time he went into town??
Of course, that's possible. Or maybe he had a locker somewhere. But I kind of think Matt would have mentioned that.
ETA: clarification of last sentence
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
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tdg asked me two questions
-If Matt had intended to do class 4 or 5 climbing, is there other gear he would have brought with him besides the helmet?
-Would he have also tended to bring the helmet for certain types of travel on ice and snow?
--We know Matt climbed the 5.5 variation on Clyde. So he was capable of just about any 4th class. He need not have taken any climbing gear besides boots, crampons and axe. Most of the peaks can be descended without a rope - even the Clyde Minaret by down climbing to the Clyde glacier. If he didn't take a rope, this indicates he didn't plan to rappel from his objective. But that doesn't much limit his objectives (there are only 3 or 4 Minarets pinnacles that one would rapp off)
--Plenty of people have and some still do, climb easy snow and easy (not too hard or steep) ice without a helmet. If he accidentally left it behind, he may not have felt the need to go back to get it. Especially if he had caught a ride.
For clarity:
Late summer Sierra snow fields and couloirs can become icy or even solid ice. This is not to be confused with "ice climbing" which generally means steep winter ice such as Matt climbed in New York.
I've been using the term "ice" in this thread to remind us that even moderate snowfields can become icy, especially in the morning. Then often slush by mid afternoon. Matt had enough Sierra experience to know this (Clyde Minaret NE face, V notch and Dana couloirs)
We had a very dry and warm winter so July conditions were more like September (as shown in Tom C's aerials)
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
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@MGuzzy -- I agree that it would be very helpful to determine whether the other ice axe was found in the camping gear or in the car. If it was in the camping gear, I think that puts the kibosh on the "caching" scenario.
But I was also saying that if Matt was concerned about the safety of his gear, wouldn't he have had to cache or bring any valuable gear every time he left the campsite for more than a few minutes? That's why I think that if he had a locker, he would have mentioned it. (I'm guessing he was in effect using the car as a locker.)
@HighTraverse, thanks for your answers to those question -- it was I who asked them. Thanks for clarifying that a rope and other climbing stuff would not have been needed. I still think that from what others have said about Matt, that he would have been unlikely to do dangerous rock climbing without a helmet. But I take your point that he could have gone on icy snow without one.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 29, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
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would have been unlikely to do dangerous rock climbing without a helmet. unlikely indeed. But sometimes one man's "dangerous" is another man's "adventure"
From what I've read of Matt he would not have made a big climb in the Minarets without helmet. He might try Ritter via SE saddle where there's not a great rockfall danger.
Without helmet he would most likely also be willing to take South Notch (to Amphitheater Lake and the "back" side of the Minarets. Easy scramble with almost no rockfall hazard from there to top of Adams Minaret. Which has a precipitous northeast face above Amphitheater Lake.
In my opinion, not taking his helmet doesn't narrow the search area a lot. It does narrow places within that search area.
PS: see Just In Time's TR on Ritter/Banner from the west. No helmets taken, none really needed.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
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Thanks, HighTraverse! As long as it narrows something down, that's good...
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Aug 29, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
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I must be missing something, but why would one take heavy boots and crampons but not a helmet... to do any kind of climb? A helmet is so light in comparison.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
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Perhaps he just forgot it...
I have
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 29, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
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Crankster....He only text my husband to tell him that he climbed 5.5 direct etc of Clyde and it was scary, he never mentioned loose rock. They only text back and forth after we left. They never had a conversation.
We found his Yarts bus schedule which was very worn. Obviously he used it in prior days but didn't have it with him on the 17th. So that led us to believe he didn't go to Toulomne?????
We doubt he would do Dana twice, it's not like him to repeat climbs.
I asked my husband "Would Matt climb easy 5 class rock without a helmet? ' This was his response...Possibly. But the decision to wear the helmet would be more a function of the nature of the terrain he planned to visit, the potential for rock or ice fall, the potential of other people climbing above, etc. He might wear a helmet on a less technical climb with poor rock quality and choose not wear a helmet on a harder climb with clean rock. From what I saw in the Minarets, there aren't too many places I would be comfortable without a helmet. That's one of the things that's never made sense to me with this whole thing; why he wouldn't have a helmet in that area.
Mt. Lyell pages are in his book untouched.
Just spoke to Norco car place...They would have placed his car outside in lot during the night. So Matt would have had full access to it 24/7.
He would have never needed his second tool after we left(only climbed steep technical ice with John)He just started climbing steep technical ice in the last couple years, still did not lead it. Can't recall if the second tool was in car or tent but I think irrevelant due to the fact he could of put the other tool in the car at any time. When we were with him, he was in the habit of storing stuff in his car instead of the tent. He was worried about theft.
Anyone know anything about Blue Couloir? High Traverse/cragman thinks its worth checking???
From what i observed from matt if he needed a helmet for a climb and forgot it. he wouldn't do the climb!!! I don't see him forgetting his helmet.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 29, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
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Just spoke with SAR, he confirmed that his second tool was at the campsite.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
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Tiffany said
we are also assuming he took his gear with an objective in mind - maybe the 'objective' was so that it was not stolen. the stuff is expensive right? the crampons were not his.
Jill said:
Just spoke with SAR, he confirmed that his second tool was at the campsite.
Thanks, Jill! I think we can rule out a scenario in which (say) Matt went for a run and stashed the items for safe-keeping. We can also rule out the faint possibility that the missing items were stolen from his campsite or from the campground storage.
I am left thinking that he intended to take that gear, for some objective. Tiffany went on:
no helmet (matt does not forget, he is borderline OCD)= no epic climb
no mention of it the night before while texting = no epic climb
solo = no epic climb
day trip = no epic climb
car is going to be ready tomorrow and he is planning leaving early and driving a huge distance = no epic climb
Jill also said:
I asked my husband "Would Matt climb easy 5 class rock without a helmet? ' This was his response...Possibly. But the decision to wear the helmet would be more a function of the nature of the terrain he planned to visit, the potential for rock or ice fall, the potential of other people climbing above, etc. He might wear a helmet on a less technical climb with poor rock quality and choose not wear a helmet on a harder climb with clean rock. From what I saw in the Minarets, there aren't too many places I would be comfortable without a helmet. That's one of the things that's never made sense to me with this whole thing; why he wouldn't have a helmet in that area.
From these quotes I get the impression that Matt would have probably brought a helmet if he had intended to do 5th class rock in areas with the potential of falling rock or whatever. (Climbers can interpret John's statement better than I.) It sounds unlikely that Matt would have forgotten his helmet, and if for some reason he had done so, that he would have modified his objective. I also wonder if he would have been more cautious about what he was climbing without a helmet if he was climbing alone.
Also, from Tiffany's comments, it sounds as if Matt was in the habit of telling people if he had an epic climb planned.
Though this may not narrow things down a lot -- Matt might still have ranged beyond Ron's 10-mile perimeter, especially if he had a ride -- it does imply that certain epic days and dangerous climbs are less likely.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
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^^^
I agree. Every scenario has some of part of it that doesn't make sense.
Jill and John were his climbing partners, so hard to disagree with any of their observations and conclusions. So frustrating.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
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Any possibility Matt had another helmet? If the helmet recovered with the car is the blue one in the photos, but has a broken part or is just plain old, he may have bought a new one (but it should show up in his CC record). If something broke (as minor as a bad strap or pad) he may have used an older backup helmet or rented one. If he forgot his, maybe he borrowed one. Anything in a pinch.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 29, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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No offense folks, but this thread is bizarre.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 29, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
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Kalimon....Than don't read it and PLEASE don't post on it
Kenish...Yes, that is the one he used with us. We also checked CC statement and there weren't any Mammoth mountaineering charges.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
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Jeg +100
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Maestra
Social climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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Big up all of you searching on land and those searching with hearts and head. What ever happened with searching history on computers at the library? I know library erases searches overnight, but is anyone willing to check on that data? Lots of time has passed, but that seems like it would give us a real window into where Matt was that evening, some ideas in his head for the next day, etc. What would it take to get that kind of search done? I am not an IT person, anyone, anyone?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
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Maestra
It would take a search warrant (which only law enforcement with a judges approval) can execute. Next it would also require a law enforcement IT person/team (which I don't think is available) and finally there are 20 computers in the library.
This has already been asked. Also a lot of time has passed.
Thanks for asking though.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:52am PT
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Kellydosentclimb
Thanks I will add this to our docs/stuff.
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