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mika
Big Wall climber
Zurich, switzerland
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Jan 31, 2012 - 04:18am PT
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Cleaning the compressor route vs. copping the compressor route
Perhaps the point that the compressor route should have been sanified and not totaly copped should be noted. To establish a new line on the original compressor route with hook moves, bolts and pendulum traverses making it more of a technical challange should have been the goal of kruck and Kennedy, not the total destruction of an established route. But more easy is the destruction because you dont have to think or use your brain.
One may not forget that the real chalange of Torre is the wind and weather not the technical difficulty. Also the route "by fair means" 5.11, A2+ is indeed no technical wonder in it self.
The only positive aspect of copping the compressor route will be that, the class of the climbers visiting the Bridwell camp will definitely rise. As to date so many "arrogant" type climbers including Kennedy and Kruck have been attracted by the compressor route and it has been well visible to all patagonian veterans, that unfriendly, nero type climbers have been hanging out in the Bridwell camp. So, the clean up will be at least in the camp, and thats a first step.
Mike Schwitter
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 31, 2012 - 04:52am PT
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As to date so many "boso-ashole-arrogant" type climbers including Kennedy and Kruck have been attracted by the compressor route
Utter bullshit!
First, K&K are not "boso-ashole-arrogant" type climbers.
Secondly they are too good of climbers to have been "attracted" to the attrocious "Bolt Route".
Grow up!
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 31, 2012 - 04:58am PT
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Philo,
Mike doesn't need to be attracted by the Compressor route ... he already climbed it in 1991 (+Fitz Roy). And he is an outstanding climber who opened several bold routes in the Alps ...
As you can see I was right with my assumptions ...
Either ignorance or fanatism ... :-)
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 31, 2012 - 05:04am PT
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K&K are not "boso-ashole-arrogant" type climbers.
there' is something childish and naive in saying (repeatedly) something and pretending it to be true and universally accepted by everybody else
we don't care how they and their spiritual guide are when social drinking, we care about their actions and their writings
I pity you.
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monaco
climber
marseille (FR) - parma (IT)
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Jan 31, 2012 - 05:38am PT
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Maestri, though undeniably talented, was either temporarily crazy, or an idiot, or such an egomaniac that he was not quite rational until the end when he saw the light and began removing them.
In my modest opinion I think that you F&*^KING 'MMERICANS should be a little bit more respectful speaking about a person that could be your father, or grand-father, and that had climbed, during his glorious youth, routes that you and your masters would never be able to do with 60s clothes, shoes, ropes...and that NOW is also fighting against cancer.
People do not like to read ''Maestri idiot'' or ''Maestri insanity'' (what a gentleman, Mr. Haley!!!) or ''Maestri via ferrata'' (not true and at least unfair to state...also if it is a ultra-bolted route).
You invoke the respect for the mountain and the wilderness...I agree.
I invoke also respect for people...do you agree???
cheers,
matteo.
p.s.
several of you said to be against Bush and his followers...to be agaist the american imperialism in the world...but, from an european point of view, your affirmations and the acts you are supporting seem not too far...
don't be surprised if people around the world think that americans are arrogant, as only they own the ''real and un-doubtable truth''...
don't be surprised if people know that talibans are really bad...but are not too sad seeing the ''american world sheriffs'' do not control the area...
that is sad to state...but this is true.
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The cad
climber
Does it matter, really?!?
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Jan 31, 2012 - 05:47am PT
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@monaco
You talk about respecting people, but a line of your post is less than respectful for many people here.
Isn't it possible to state one's own arguments without gratuitously offending Americans, Italians, Argentinean or whatever?
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monaco
climber
marseille (FR) - parma (IT)
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Jan 31, 2012 - 06:13am PT
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@ ''the cad''
''F&$^KING 'MMERICANS'' was a ''reaction''...I hope that you know ''irony''...i do not actually consider americans f&$^king people.
you have the right to say your opinions...and I have the right to do not agree...and to judge your actions/statements...
I specify that what I said about Bush/americans/feelings of people around the world is SAD...
but this is the truth...the ''mean feeling'' concerning americans is what I wrote...
I hope that knowing the ''not fear'' idea that people have about you could help you to reflect.
that said, I'm not affirming ''I've the truth!!''...the world, the life, people, are never black or white...totally good or totally bad...and often people, americans in particular, seem to forget this.
this topic is able to collect opinions from all around the world...sometime foreign opinions are not good to ear...but if me and others spend our time for letting you know our opinions is not only for expressing our disappointing about Compressor route chopping (that is easy...''F&$^KING IMPERIALIST 'MMERICANS ;-))))) )...but also because we consider important give you some different point of view, we consider important discus with you...
scio me nihil scire
I know one thing, that I know nothing
SOCRATES...and a good example of italian/roman imperialism...Socrates in Latin ;-))))))))
p.s.
as I stated before...I climb ''by fair means''...no bolt, no bolted belay...in ''my'' alps...
I strongly criticized the euro bolt ''drift''...and personally chopped several bolts on previously unbolted routes...
nevertheless I do not support K&K actions on Cerro Torre...the way they did is, in my opinion, not correct...and in our useless activity the way we do things is far more important than things themselves
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The cad
climber
Does it matter, really?!?
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Jan 31, 2012 - 06:23am PT
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you have the right to say your opinions...and I have the right to do not agree...and to judge your actions/statements... Thank you for reminding...
LOL
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 31, 2012 - 06:29am PT
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@monaco,
I understand that anger makes people blind.
But not all americans support K&K chopping action.
So, I don't see why, because one of them is irrespectful, you have to believe that all of them are.
It's like to say that, because Berlusconi had done to a lot of orgies, also all other italians did.
And both of us know that, unfortunately, this is not true. :-)
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monaco
climber
marseille (FR) - parma (IT)
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Jan 31, 2012 - 06:45am PT
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@enzolino
are my words too 'strong'' and not kind ?
yes, they are.
have american people the right to feel offended by my words?
yes, they have...and also they are right!
why I do that?
I wanted to show how several people around the world (italy, europe, argentine, US!!) feel when ear affirmations like ''Maestri insanity'' or ''fool, idiot, etc...''
the way by which americans are judged around the world is correct?
no, this is often a pre-judgement...
nevertheless this is the (not correct) opinion of a lot of people that is influenced by some kind of ''american unique truth''...
ma porcazzozza, possibile che tocca farlo a me di difendere sta stracazzo di via demmerda che ho sempre detestato...'na fila de spitti!!, perche' questi in media nel cervello c'hanno i bai'!!!
''lamerigani stanno avanti, e noi che siamo dietro di sicuro, per la legge naturale, glielo si puo' butta nerculo'' :)
for our anglosaxon friends...I simply saying to enzolino that is incredible that I'm defending the compressor route, that I always abhorred...but this is another example that life and people are not only black/white...
the last thing is a jazz italian (slang) song...that I do not translate because it is at least not respectful concerning you ;-)))))))))
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Jan 31, 2012 - 08:56am PT
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Judas!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 31, 2012 - 08:57am PT
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But all in all the low class of many dudes hanging out at the Bridwell camp, was striking for me.
LOL
I don't think Jim would mind attending a Bunga Bunga party there.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Jan 31, 2012 - 09:54am PT
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"Curious to read that the guy who was responsible for adding some 40 bolts to the Compressor route is now up on his horse being righteous. Nice consistency David! seems like you have more than a little growing up to do."
How is he being self-righteous (which is what I assume you mean by saying he is "up on his horse being righteous") ?
He is saying that what K and K did is "destroying what some body else has done and nobody is entitled to destroy it."
How do you judge him as being "righteous" for saying that nobody has the right to destroy what someone else has done?
There may be some debate whether adding dozens of bolts to a route is as destructive as removing them, but I understood this comment to mean that since Lama's team had altered the route by adding bolts, then it could be taken as self-righteous to criticize someone else for altering the route by removing them. While it might be true that Lama did not personally drill the bolts, he did bring along a film team to make a way-rad DVD of his climbing exploits, and therefore I understand it's not so unreasonable to assume he bears (at least some) responsibility for the bolting.
Hope that helps!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 31, 2012 - 10:02am PT
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The Kendedy Kruck Klan (KKK)chopped parts of his route on Torre without asking him, an absolute no go, even if the climb could not hold up to modern standars.
There was absolutely no requirement to ask Maestri for permission to chop that abortion - he lost all of that kind of mutual respect by his actions in both 1959 and 1970 with respect to CT and the compressor.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 31, 2012 - 10:19am PT
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There was absolutely no requirement to ask Maestri for permission to chop that abortion - he lost all of that kind of mutual respect by his actions in both 1959 and 1970 with respect to CT and the compressor. Like many climbers in that time?
I can see there is not worse blind than who doesn't want to see ...
Do you think Harding, Robbins, and many others don't deserve respect for their routes?
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Jean Gurtorju
climber
land of echoes
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Jan 31, 2012 - 10:25am PT
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There was absolutely no requirement to ask Maestri for permission to chop that abortion - he lost all of that kind of mutual respect by his actions in both 1959 and 1970 with respect to CT and the compressor.
A bullshit repeated a thousand times is still a bullsh#t.
Nothing more.
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mika
Big Wall climber
Zurich, switzerland
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Jan 31, 2012 - 10:43am PT
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If you must do it, do it in good style
I have been multiple times to Patagonia, climbing many peaks in the Fitz and Paine areas. But all in all the low class of many dudes hanging out at the Bridwell camp, was striking for me. The Compressor route was definitely responsible for bringing folk to Patagonia who did not belong there. So that the compressor route does currently not exist any more does not bother me. Its not the matter of what was done, but how it was done. Nothing has been achieved if Kurk and Kennedy climb Torre in a good style but remove another climb in a bad style, it’s not congruent. Certain ethics go beyond the world of climbing and belong to life.
Kennedy & Kruck have been attracted by the compressor route in the most negative way possible, they belong to a Klan of climbers with no respect for history, democracy, locals or Torre. There had been a more creative way to deal with the compressor route, by cleaning it up to be 5.12, A3 or so. Destruction is never a peaceful way. Destruction comes from arrogance, aggression, the belief to be better than others and only leads to war. That’s why the bolt chopping Kennedy & Kruck Klan belongs removed.
Definitely Torre has gained back some of it’s a’lure and that’s what Rolo must like about the action, but it was achieved in a negative way, using bad style and that’s what counts.
Mika
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 31, 2012 - 10:52am PT
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Really.
They just have hoods in order to keep warm!
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jan 31, 2012 - 11:02am PT
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Stevie Haston has an interesting piece about his perspective on CT, Maestri, bolt chopping and alpinism: http://steviehaston.blogspot.com/2012/01/american-alpine-imperialism-stevie.html
Read the entire page at the link, but here's an excerpt:
Far from thinking the two lads were Imperialist in their attitude, I see them as continuing a fine tradition of tidying up, which is going out of favour by the politically correct pole dancers of today. But to agree we need to define......
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 31, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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Yawn, more Euro-wankers talking about all these routes that need chopping without having the balls to do it themselves. Fap fap fap fap.
Funny how just about every top-level alpinist who has chimed in on this, be it trailblazers from that era (Comesana, Dickinson, Messner) or modern standard-bearers (Haston, Ian Parnell, Rolo, Steve House, Jon Walsh, Colin Haley, David Falt, etc.) has come out in favor (or at worst ambivalent) towards the chopping.
Coz is the only top climber who's really mad about this it seems. I'm not counting Schneider because he did a far worse chop job and lied about it so his credibility on this issue is close to zero.
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