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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 24, 2014 - 12:39am PT
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Amen
All hail The Chief
As Base says this thread has been dead for you AGWer's for a year. Pay the lady on the way out the door.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 24, 2014 - 12:53am PT
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Jan 24, 2014 - 12:59am PT
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That's the guy Burt Bronson was roping up with.
I let him go.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 24, 2014 - 11:50am PT
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Hit #1 from #1. The Chief of Crapola was up late posting his usual gobblygoop.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 24, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
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If you have the vision to see and will to act, reality is not a thousands shades of grey. Hundreds of billions of dollars per EU country is no small sum of cooperation, particularly when it drives industry that employs the people to China and the "skyrocketing energy costs" picks the pockets of the consumers that keep the economy afloat. The answer you guys are looking for will never be found in China, rather it is underfoot everywhere in the form of abundant stocks of NG, in new generation nuclear, in defunding CAGW terrorism and redirecting the funding to applied science of actually making the clean energy you imagine into cost effective alternatives. If we have the acceptance of the realities of the world, realization of the black and white roads forward, and the will to stay the course, regardless of irrational naysayers, well then it might just not be "The Chinese century".
Bruce, as a B.C. commie you should practice what you preach on the only field you have influence, the extremely local one. Your sphere of influence might well not extend past the bubble enclosing you.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jan 24, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
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Your right, Anderson. That's why China's solar market will continue it's rapid growth for a long time.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jan 24, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
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You couldn't be more wrong. Examples abound of civilizations that collapsed because their culture was incapable of managing their resources, their populations, and their neighbors. Ours is a tiny little global island in the middle of nowhere... fuk it up and we have nowhere to go. Even the Dalai Lama said as much.
I think you misunderstood Sketch's post (although maybe I misunderstood his or yours).
I think all of the frequent recent posters pretty much agree that nothing much will be done about climate change anytime soon, even if something should be done.
Ed's "Nash equilibrium" analysis is I suppose the most formal way to explain it, but in typical Ed fashion he takes a point that is fairly simple (or at least not rocket science) and complicates it up so much that most people lose interest.
In the basic "law and economics" terminology that I'm somewhat familiar with, the principle is generally explained as "the tragedy of the commons" and the "prisoners' dilemma." No math or mathematical notation is necessary to understand the basic point.
It is slightly interesting, at least to me, that the most obvious "solution" to this problem is something like a single world government. We can consider whether a dim awareness of this shapes people's views on climate change and what should be the response to it.
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TLP
climber
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Jan 24, 2014 - 01:59pm PT
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If there is any thing on which there might be something vaguely near agreement on this thread (other than, the other guy is an a**hole :-) ), it is that nothing really substantive is likely to happen to reduce human CO2 emissions without China doing a lot, which none of us seems to think is going to happen. There isn't agreement on how important reducing emissions is or isn't, but in the practical world, it's more useful to have an idea of what's going to happen rather than what should have.
My take is, it's pretty important to figure out the climate science not because it might convince all parties that reducing emissions is important (which, by that time, the lag from taking action to realizing benefits will be a long time), but because maximizing the accuracy of our knowledge of the likely future climate circumstances is useful in adjusting our habitat modifications to those conditions. By way of example, I mean mundane stuff like sea walls and water systems.
Even the posters here who think it's all natural variations ought to agree that being prepared for those variations is a good thing, eh?
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TLP
climber
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Jan 24, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
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Chief, no I don't. I definitely have some very major issues with many things that China does (or doesn't do). Unfortunately, there are some things which are simply not manufactured anywhere else, period, but I do everything possible to buy stuff manufactured anywhere else. Any new large cams, I'd be getting DMM Dragons instead of C4s. Biners, pretty much just DMM or Petzl. Metolius. I believe in voting with my dollars, and I'll pay a premium to be able to do so if I have to. Thread drift, but you asked, and that's my answer.
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TLP
climber
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Jan 24, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
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Well, DMT, whether that was the point of the question or not, it was a straight question which I judged to deserve a straight answer. I would agree in the hypothetical that it is hypocritical to be highly critical of China and still to buy all your stuff from there; but there are some things for which you have no alternative. If I thought some piece of BD gear was a must have, I'd get it anyway. Life is an unending series of greater or lesser compromises.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 24, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
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Don't think he owns a trailer.
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TLP
climber
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Jan 24, 2014 - 04:33pm PT
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And then everyone realized the cost and hassle involved...
No, Sketch, you have it just a bit wrong: the "everyone" was the companies involved who didn't want to deal with the cost and hassle, and they moved to suppress the information and monopolize supply chains so people couldn't make the choice to pay a few cents more per pair of jeans even if they wanted to. The issue definitely hasn't just gone poof, but lamentably, there's no action until you have stuff like the fires and building collapses in southern Asia. Then it's in all the media and the information that they're really screwing people and the environment in those places can no longer be suppressed. But the general public didn't just give up on the principle because they thought it was costly or a hassle.
Edited to add: DMT - you're totally right. I just chose to answer the specific question rather than to comment about it being irrelevant. Just a choice.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 24, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
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bears repeating
If al gore would get off his fhat hiney and actually plant trees to erase HIS carbon fooootprint, We would have 100% planted forests growing madly- sucking up CO2 by the bucket.
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TLP
climber
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Jan 24, 2014 - 05:40pm PT
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BTW What's your global footprint?
I don't know today, I'd have to check the equation. It's governed by a complicated formula incorporating ENSO, TSI, and daily CO2.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 24, 2014 - 08:40pm PT
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Mr. Mann will rue the day when he exposed himself to a legal and journalistic treasure hunt that is discovery.
He really thinks it's brilliant to take on Mark Stein in front of a jury no less?
LOL
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 24, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
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Have you always been such a sore loser Bruce? Do you judge yourself as critically as others? Have you ever been able to keep friends?
You say you are soon to be vacationing down this way. Perhaps a face to face visit is in order. Can i interest you in a day of tromping the high rimrock for chukar or a visit to one of our tailing piles?
After 4 days recovering from flu enough to finally get out to the hills again i come back to your shet. Get over it.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 24, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
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Too bad they won't sell tickets!
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 24, 2014 - 10:08pm PT
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Haven't our CO2 emissions (not that it is proven they are hazardous and a net negative to the environment) here in the good ol U.S.A. been on the decline over the last decade, largely due to the switch from coal to gas and improved efficiencies, Dr. Hartouni? Could we not make very significant further decreases through full use of NG, embracement of new nuclear in the proper locales of course, solving the storage problem of wind and solar, further efficiencies in space heating and vehicle mileage etc. Wouldn't the aforementioned measures attract manufacturing back to these shores and consequently boost employment, tax revenues, american consumerism of added american made products? Couldn't the same measures be taken throughout the western world? Would this decrease the growth rate of China and other developing nations who pay only lip service to environmental concerns while releasing untold quantities of real pollutants? Why do extremists stand in the way of such rational improvements?
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