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FreeClimberDude
Trad climber
CA
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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Thanks, Atch.
Here is the book we seek. Or at least I *think* it's the book we seek! Anyone got it? Got a digi cam or a scanner?
On sale used starting at thirty-three cents!
I bet several of those guys are original shitters crew if we could know all! I was told a couple of them were by an old timer in the valley.. ouch
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
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I could have it completely wrong, but I get the impression quite a few of the SoCal climbers had earlier jock backgrounds; curious if that was actually the case and what role, if any, that subtext may have played in the development of the local 'culture'.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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BTW
I find it a bit odd that PTPP didn't know who the author was until today...being an expert on the story and all...just sayin
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
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Mr. Kingsbury,
Thanks for the quote and clarification regarding it. As for the name of the author, you are forgetting that I was an angler long before I was a climber.
Knuckles - the very second after I set down the phone after being offered the gig from R&I, I emailed Kait's mom #1SuperMama to inform her.
Knuckles - You also raise an excellent point that nobody has yet considered - thanks! Dave Turner was the Yosemite local who went to Patagonia, and spent a similar length of time making the first-ever completely unsupported solo of a Grade VII big wall.
Dave = hero today
Mark and Richard = goats yesterday
Why? Please discuss.
"-There's been a great deal of logic in these last few pages. All sorts of well thought out posts about bolting perceptions vs. nailing, territorial rights and paying dues, etc. All this good perspective and compelling arguement has no place on Super Topo and least of all this thread. I suggest everyone who posts logical thoughts or anything not including hatred and spite go back and edit their posts while slightly drunk and think twice (or drink twice) before posting again."
Well, I'll be buggered - it's FRIDAY!
Knuckles - would you care to make the first post today:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1054430/The-Friday-Night-Posting-While-Drunk-Post
Be sure to play by the "rules"!
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
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Re. the Nose first ascent. The first third, with Mark Powell at the helm, took about a week. Had he not busted his ankle, forcing slowpoke Harding to start leading, the whole thing might have been over within a month or so.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
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Why is it cool now and when Harding did it but it was a regression of style when Richard and Mark did it.
There is a huge difference between a first ascent in the 1950s of what was then a major mountaineering objective by one of the two ro three leading climbers of the era, and a first ascent of a variation to popular rockclimbs by unknowns thirty years later.
First, because the relative difficulty of the first route was vastly greater-- it was unclear if it really possible, unclear if the NPS would allow it, marginal gear, not even clear if retreat could happen and, of course, rescue wasn't a real option.
Second, because in the late 1960s and 1970s, the concept of alpine style developed in opposition to older, expedition mountaineering. You needn't have participated in those debates to grasp the story: Just pick up any of the dozens of standard histories of mountaineering or just get Donini started and then sit back and drink beer.
Turner's ascent is different because of (1) and partly because of (2).
Historical perspective doesn't mean picking up random bits of data from whenever or wherever and then tossing them in a blender as if they were all equal components. When and where something happens matters. That's what "historical perspective" is.
Again, I don't personally give a rat's ass about WoS, and I don't have a personal opinion as to whether or not it was "retrograde" by early 1980s standards. And I remain fairly appalled by the sort of abuse directed at Mark and Richard. But it does matter that it happened right then and swam against what was then a very strong current-- from the Americans on Latok to Messner on Everest --in favor of minimalist undertakings.
There is no longer such a consensus on El Cap. Now, it's just another practice crag-- rap in, live on ledges, rehearse whatever for new FFAs. Drag your bridge circle up a trade route-- the context has changed.
So no, 1959 is not the early 1980s is not 2011.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
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"First, because the relative difficulty of the first route was vastly greater-- it was unclear if it really possible, unclear if the NPS would allow it, marginal gear, not even clear if retreat could happen and, of course, rescue wasn't a real option."
This describes Dave Turner's solo quite well. [except for the NPS bit]
"Again, I don't personally give a rat's ass about..."
Spoken like Warren Harding himself!
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Jul 22, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
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Klk and Ron- I understand there's huge differences in the situations. There's also parallels. I put them out there more as side topics for consideration, not points to prove anything. I can fully appreciate the evolution of style and ethics and know that you can't just "throw things into a blender" and say they're the same thing. That wasn't my intent and I guess I worded it poorly. Again I meant it more as a side conversation not an endorsement of their tactics in '82.
I think Turner's ascent is also different because he was solo, in an area where he was truly alone, not the SE face of El Cap where a rescue is a phone call away.
Pete the fact that you had told Mama as much about being involved in this from a media perspective is great. What would make people not as mad at you at times is if you would let people know critical details like this. There's several posts blasting you in this situation and you're pulling a Nanook and pretending like they're not there. While I admire your ability to take sh#t (bad example in this thread), I think people's perceptions of you might be different if you revealved that sort of info.
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kaitb
Big Wall climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
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Knuckles - Let me correct everyone here on what happened. Pete had emailed my mom stating that he was going to do an article for Rock & Ice and that he had wanted to talk with Ammon and I as soon as we had gotten down from our climb. We found out about this email when we had yet to even had finished Wings of Steel. Both Ammon and I were a little perturbed that we hadn't even finished the climb and someone was already jumping on our story. My mom had written Pete back stating that we didn't agree with what he was doing and that we had planned on writing our own article discussing the history and controversy of the climb.
What Pete used in his R&I piece was information provided by us when we talked with him privately at the bridge discussing the first two pitches and the info he got from my mom as she was reporting here on supertopo to everyone of our progress. At the time, we talked with Pete we didn't know he was going to write anything about WOS. I guess it is a lesson learned.
And yes, Pete can write anything he wants too. I agree to that. It's just there should be a certain amount of respect upon doing so. For instance, asking us upon completion of our climb if we had been planning to write an article? If not, he should have mentioned he wanted to write one. If we said yes we were planning on writing one about our climb, then to maybe ask if he could collaborate with us. All it takes is a little decency in the beginning to avoid conflict in the end.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
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All it takes is a little decency in the beginning to avoid conflict in the end.
Seems like this thought, 30 years ago, would have avoided this whole situation.
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
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Kait
Unfortunately decency isn't Pete's strong suit. I agree that he should've made his intentions much more clear and respected you and Ammon. Thanks for shedding more light on the situation.
The "media" we're used to seeing usually doesn't care about the feelings or respect of those it's reporting on as there's some level of anonymmity. I would hope that Pete would've been different considering his involvement and connection to the community. Perhaps not though.
It seems Pete has a long and somewhat sordid history of miscommunication and general toe-stepping-on. I do think he's relatively harmless and probably meant no disrespect with his actions. There's a big difference between in-considerate and un-considerate. I think in his excitement he just fell into the latter and just didn't really think before acting. Maybe the same could be said of the orignial shitters? No doubt this full cirlce connection will bring an end to this controversy and several thousand post topic. Or maybe not..,
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
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Kait. no offense intended just a bit of advice about talking to the press from someone who has done a fair bit of freelance photojournalism. If you don't want it in the press and often misquoted at that then do not talk to the press. IT Is no secret that Pete has a collum in one of the glossy raggs so he is the press like it or not. You guys are still sitting pretty to write an article but as with all things editiorial related where and if it gets published depends on who you haVE the best relationship with and who is willing to publish your work. Do Not procrastonate. get something good put together ASAP and start shopping it.
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
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Tradman
While you're absolutely right, Kait and Ammon should still be basking in the glow of their send, high fiving and drinking beer at the bridge, not madly typing trying to get it to print first. It's unfortunate to see this play out this way.
Hopefully what Pete would do at this stage is promise to not publish anything until after they get a chance. Maybe Pete can pitch a two parter to the SA team and to Raleigh at R & I? Ammon and Kait do the TR and tell they're perspective and Pete provides some additional historical context.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
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"Pete has a collum in one of the glossy raggs so he is the press like it or not."
No, he got canned a few years back and doesn't write for them anymore.
"Always ask whether your comments are on/off record or are for publication. I had this issue with a Bloomberg reporter yesterday."
That doesn't always work and has in FACT bit me in the arse in the past.
All good, everything has worked itself out. Cheers!
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
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Everything klk is saying verbatim.
Many people discussing wos don't appear to understand that wos is controversial.
As for pete, profiting in ones own recreation and trying to remain thought of as a regular member of that recreation's community has always been a slippery slope. Some are clearly better at it than others.
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Gene
climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:56pm PT
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Why is Pete involved in WoS in any way, shape or form? Journalist? Come on. Historian? Yeah! Measured and insightful? You bet.
I don't get it.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
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To be clear on the timeline, when I spoke to Ammon and Kait on the bridge, it never even occured to me to write an article! I just saw them, and asked how it was going. I was and am most curious as to what they found. I'm super psyched that they sent the wall - thank goodness.
As they continued their climb, once again, it never occured to me to write an article. I was and am most interested in what they found, and how it reflects on Mark's and Richard's credibility.
At some point along the line, I thought, "Gee, I wonder if R&I might like an article?" So on a whim, I picked up the phone and called Duane, and he said, "Sure, sounds interesting. You should definitely talk to Ammon and Kait." At the same time, R*I asked me to write a news blurb.
So upon hanging up the phone, I immediately emailed Kait's mom, told her I'd been asked to write an article, and could I talk to them either on the wall, or as soon as they got down. I did hear back from her about a day later, as Kait relates above. In the meantime, I wrote the press release as requested.
At the time I spoke with Ammon and Kait on the bridge, and at the time I wrote Kait's mom, it never occured to me that Ammon and Kait might be considering writing something, too. We had simply not talked about it. Had I thought to ask, I would have, but I didn't think to ask.
What I told their mom was what I wanted to hear from Ammon and Kait is their story, the story of the second ascent. I have nothing to say about this, as it is their story to tell, and I look forward to hearing it.
When Kait instant messaged me on Facebook, I did apologize to her for the press release. I wish we had talked about it on the bridge. Once again, it was never my intent to usurp their Second Ascent story nor step on their toes.
The story I wish to pursue is the story of Mark and Richard, the past and present, the smear campaign, and so on. To me, that's the real story, because it affected their entire lives for a quarter-century. And to me, Ammon and Kait's ascent is a highly relevant sidebar to that story, as well as a story unto itself.
It's not a competition. I'd prefer to work together with Kait and Ammon. I would love a collaborative effort among the three of us, with them doing the Second Ascent story, and me working on the historical aspect. Things will work themselves out. Don't get yer knickers in a knot. It's all good.
We'll have a beer on the bridge in a few months and laugh about it.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
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"I hope you keep their story out of your report, as many have previously stated."
Mr. E - are you one of these people who likes to flog dead horses, or are you just someone who has to say "I told you so", or are you simply blind, or unable to read? There is at least one additional possibility.
I clearly stated my intentions on this post days ago.
PLEASE READ WHAT I WROTE.
Also, to be clear, I was not canned nor fired from my Ask Dr. Piton column. The questions weren't really coming in very frequently, and it had simply run its course.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
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OK, cool.
Now, did you READ what I wrote a few days ago??? Please answer this question. If your answer is "yes", I have nothing further to say. If your answer is "no", please go back and read what I said.
Because in the post above, you are telling me not to do something that I already told the world I would not do.
This is both annoying and perplexing to me.
So please answer the question, thus telling me which of the four plus one possibilities you are.
Arg. Nobody reads anything. Grumble grumble grumble. You make an unambiguous statement about intent, crystal clear, but does anyone read it? Does anyone synthesize it? No. They read nine hundred subsequent posters, all who disregarded it, and then feel they have to add their two cents' worth.
If I need someone to tell me not to do something that I have already said I will not do, then I will re-marry my control freak schoolteacher bitch ex-wife!!!
Time to move to the Friday night post, dammit.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Jul 22, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
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Pete,
Without you this place would truly be intolerable. Carry On !!!
Cracko
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