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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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Largo,
First, yes I was drinking when I wrote last night.
Second, you misquoted me.
This is what you said that I was mocking:
That of a spiritual nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The eternal never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The spiritual simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate spirituality to being, not thinking.
This is what I wrote:
To paraphrase,
That of a flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunnys to being, not thinking.
Absolute nonsense.
This is how you "quoted" me:
Wanda wrote: "To paraphrase,
That of a flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The Of course none of this makes "sense," because "sense" is limited to "things" we can measure, contrast, and work over and adorn with our evolved minds and senses. That's why trying to investigate spirituality through standard thought processes will reveal nothing at all. simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunnys to being, not thinking.
Absolute nonsense."
You say the spiritual simply IS. You explain that "It" doesn't exist per se, but "it" is related to being, but John "being" has to do with existence or ISness. Doesn't this seem a bit circular?
You say "it" doesn't make "sense" because sense can only relate to material things, but then what you seem to be left with is imaginary non-"sense" that "IS" because we say it is.
Spiritual feelings, like feelings of love, have a biochemical basis that probably had some evolutionary benefits. These feelings have been described as "more real, than real." But that doesn't mean they are part of some vast, eternal meta-universal force.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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No Gobee, you have your biblical facts wrong.
First Adam and Eve "sinned" by eating fruit from the Tree Of Knowledge,
and THEN, because this really pissed god off, she threw them out of the garden.
Lesson: Humans should never eat from the tree of knowledge, instead
they should stay blissfully ignorant.
Gobee, you of all people, should know this story.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
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God is not a she.
Purusa = male
God is always male.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:15pm PT
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And you know this how?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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You are the rascal scientist , Wanda
Get to work rascal. Go to your laboratory and discover and quit wasting time.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
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You say the spiritual simply IS. You explain that "It" doesn't exist per se, but "it" is related to being, but John "being" has to do with existence or ISness. Doesn't this seem a bit circular?
You say it doesn't make "sense" because sense can only relate to material things, but then what you seem to be left with is imaginary non-"sense" that "IS" because we say it is.
Spiritual feelings, like feelings of love, have a biochemical basis that probably had some evolutionary benefits. These feelings have been described as "more real, than real." But that doesn't mean they are part of some vast, eternal meta-universal force.
-------
You'll just tie your mind in knots trying to reason this all out like that. Some folks understood this 3,000 years ago and in pursuit of direct spiritual awareness, went in the opposite direction = meditation. Nothing wrong with thought - it's invaluable for living in the world.
Now for the hundredth time, I'm NOT refering to a constelation of "spiritual feelings," sensations, thoughts, beliefs, or any other content from our evolved, biological mind, including consciousnes itself.
Lastly, in saying that the ALL is related to being, I mean that being is the worm hole in, as opposed to thinking. You have to get quiet and settle into simply being here for any shift to take place. And in my tradition (Soto Zen) if you run into "some vast, eternal meta-universal force," you immediately detach from that and return to no-thing/no-mind.
JL
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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God would have to be female, because she is detail orientated and stays focused.
After all, which came first, god or the chick?
Locker, don't answer this question.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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God got pissed, forced Adam and Eve into hard labor, and gave Eve great
pain in childbirth, all because they ate some fruit. Nice move, god.
Genesis 3 introduces the Serpent, "slier than every beast of the field." The serpent tempts the woman to eat from the tree of knowledge, telling her that it will not lead to death; she succumbs, and gives the fruit to the man, who eats also, "and the eyes of the two of them were opened." Aware now of their nakedness, they make coverings of fig leaves, and hide from the sight of God. God, seeing that they have broken his command by eating from the tree, curses them with hard labor and with pain in childbirth, and banishes them from his garden, setting a cherub at the gate to bar their way to the Tree of Life, "lest he put out his hand ... and eat, and live forever."
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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Sumeru.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
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Think we have a battle of poets here.
Largo to my unstructured mind when I read your comments I get the feeling you are stretching to take the real measurable world and define some sort of non-material extension to it.
That's great. That's how advances are made. By stretching.
But to simply imply this based upon some biochemical reactions taking place in a few litres out of total space comprising many trillions of trillions of parsecs?
Got to flesh it out better for us.
PS: Anybody seen anything more exciting that what is happening here?
Really.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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Cragman, we share a lineage with elephants, yes... we do look like them (some of us more than others, perhaps, but that's just a detail)
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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All living things are related. We are all cousins.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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"...a living being" (Genesis 2:7) - God breathes into the man's nostrils and he becomes nefesh hayya. The earlier translation of this phrase as "living soul" is now recognised as incorrect: "nefesh" signifies something like the English word "being", in the sense of a corporeal body capable of life; the concept of a "soul" in our sense did not exist in Hebrew thought until around the 2nd century BC, when the idea of a bodily resurrection gained popularity.[3]
Too bad for the humans on earth before some 2000 years ago or so when
god breathed a soul into some nostrils.
Depends on your birthday whether you get a shot at an afterlife.
See why even children come to the conclusion this is an incredible CROCK?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 20, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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"First Adam and Eve "sinned" by eating fruit from the Tree Of Knowledge,
and THEN, because this really pissed god off, she threw them out of the garden.
Lesson: Humans should never eat from the tree of knowledge, instead
they should stay blissfully ignorant."
Well that's because of are Great Grandparents times x to the 10 power, i.e., Adam & Eve.
We should do what God wants us to do because it's always right and best.
Adam & Eve messed up because they did what God said not to.
But with forgiveness through Jesus, we can start to do what God wants with purpose!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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God tells us to beat up our children or else they might be "spoiled".
"Spare the rod and spoil the child". From the bible so god said it.
Straight from the lips of god, Gobee, and because god tells you to beat
your children, then you better be doing it or you are breaking god's law
and he will punish you like he did Adam and Eve for eating some fruit.
God really gets off on threatening and then actually inflicting physical
violence on people, the bible is full of it. The bible is god's WORD.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
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WHY did it take god six entire days to create the world?
Surely she could have blinked like in Bewitched and created it that fast?
And why did god "rest" on the seventh day?
Was he that tired, so exhausted that he needed to take a nap?
Too bad the men who wrote the bible and made all this childish stuff up
did not bother to be more consistent in what they wrote.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 20, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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Largo to my unstructured mind when I read your comments I get the feeling you are stretching to take the real measurable world and define some sort of non-material extension to it.
That's great. That's how advances are made. By stretching.
But to simply imply this based upon some biochemical reactions taking place in a few litres out of total space comprising many trillions of trillions of parsecs?
Got to flesh it out better for us.
PS: Anybody seen anything more exciting that what is happening here?
Really.
--
Now understand that the basic nature and function of the evaluating mind is to divide, compare, contrast, and so forth. ANYTHING that lies outside of those functions will naturally seem like a "stretch" to the evaluating mind, which "won't buy" that there is anything other than itself and its purview. Put differently, the ego can only recognize itself and it's needs and wants, so God, to most people, will get "fleshed out" accordingly.
Now look at this closely: What are we really going after here, if not some definable, graqspable thing that will satisfy the evaluating mind. If it's not a thing, that it's nothing, zero, nada. If there is a "God," what value is He/She/It if we cannot KNOW Him much as we know a #2 Camalot or a chalk bag.
People keep hounding me to properly define the ALL while all the while we pretty much know that those asking the questions almost certainly betting against themselvs and have an answer already in their minds: That whatever it is I'm driving at is the "product" of the evolved mind, maybe some genetic residue that served some evolutionary purpose. But "it" is a by-product of matter, right?
The reason we do this is that, as mentioned, the evolved/evaluating mind can only imagine itself, or projections/extensions of itself. The evaluating mind will ALWAYS consider the ALL as an extension of itself, and will grapple to picture some "other" place or non-material stuff or secret God realm.
The amazing thing is that the mind already IS awakened, but it doesn't know as much. That's what the "practice" is all about, discovering who we are beyond ego and mental constructs.
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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so we're against proselytizing now? seems that there has been plenty of that from the faithful here, why not from the minority science folk?
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