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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
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Actually, that might be only part of the statement that is true. You sure can't argue that the climbing community didn't retaliate. However rest is nonsense.
But man, I sure believed it. Unbelievable, but true.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
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Pete, you haven't been paing attention. A number of climbers have posted saying they were there , but didn;t condone or get involved in this bs. Seems like a small vocal majority of VC's.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
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pete,
About the Author
Jim Bridwell is called Mr. Big Wall. His climbing experiences stem back two decades. Specializing in speed climbing, Jim was the first climber to ascend El Capitan in on day. Steve Grossman is and experienced climber whose concern for the environment causes him to take the concept of clean climbing to the extreme. Steve writes about putting up first ascents and climbing ethics, two concepts that go hand in hand. Randy Leavitt has produced some of the toughest pitches ever climbed on El Capitan. A bold climber, Randy's main concern is safety as you will notice in his chapter on Tricky Placements. John Middendorf has ascended El Capitan over 20 times. As President of the climbing equipment company, A5 Adventures, John and A5 have helped many beginning big wall climbers reach new heights. Steve Schnieder sets the pace when it comes to speed climbing. Along with a partner, Steve climbed two routes on El Capitan in one day. Steve's chapters give techniques for climbing fast, how to achieve a one-day ascent, and rope soloing. Mike Strassman is chief editor to this book. He has written two other ICS titles to include The Basic Essentials of Rock Climbing and The Basic Essentials of Mountain Biking. Mike has experience climbing various terrains, everything from Zion Canyon and The Equinox to The Washington Column.
this from the amazon site....i think back on that old thread Steve indicates that the editor added some stuff to the offending section as well...
on a side note i thought Schneiders chapter on speed was way cool and the first real info of its kind BITD...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
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So the words above then, concerning Wings of Steel, are from the chapter Steve Grossman wrote. But it could have been edited as well.
Hmmm. It would be interesting to know from Steve if he recalls those to be his exact words, or if they were changed by the editor?
Yes, Atch - it wasn't everyone who was against Mark and Richard. But my research indicates it was a substantial number of the big names from back in the day. And there were enough of them to physically threaten the two parvenus.
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FreeClimberDude
Trad climber
CA
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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Thanks, Atch.
Here is the book we seek. Or at least I *think* it's the book we seek! Anyone got it? Got a digi cam or a scanner?
On sale used starting at thirty-three cents!
I bet several of those guys are original shitters crew if we could know all! I was told a couple of them were by an old timer in the valley.. ouch
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
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I could have it completely wrong, but I get the impression quite a few of the SoCal climbers had earlier jock backgrounds; curious if that was actually the case and what role, if any, that subtext may have played in the development of the local 'culture'.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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BTW
I find it a bit odd that PTPP didn't know who the author was until today...being an expert on the story and all...just sayin
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
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Mr. Kingsbury,
Thanks for the quote and clarification regarding it. As for the name of the author, you are forgetting that I was an angler long before I was a climber.
Knuckles - the very second after I set down the phone after being offered the gig from R&I, I emailed Kait's mom #1SuperMama to inform her.
Knuckles - You also raise an excellent point that nobody has yet considered - thanks! Dave Turner was the Yosemite local who went to Patagonia, and spent a similar length of time making the first-ever completely unsupported solo of a Grade VII big wall.
Dave = hero today
Mark and Richard = goats yesterday
Why? Please discuss.
"-There's been a great deal of logic in these last few pages. All sorts of well thought out posts about bolting perceptions vs. nailing, territorial rights and paying dues, etc. All this good perspective and compelling arguement has no place on Super Topo and least of all this thread. I suggest everyone who posts logical thoughts or anything not including hatred and spite go back and edit their posts while slightly drunk and think twice (or drink twice) before posting again."
Well, I'll be buggered - it's FRIDAY!
Knuckles - would you care to make the first post today:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1054430/The-Friday-Night-Posting-While-Drunk-Post
Be sure to play by the "rules"!
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
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Re. the Nose first ascent. The first third, with Mark Powell at the helm, took about a week. Had he not busted his ankle, forcing slowpoke Harding to start leading, the whole thing might have been over within a month or so.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
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Why is it cool now and when Harding did it but it was a regression of style when Richard and Mark did it.
There is a huge difference between a first ascent in the 1950s of what was then a major mountaineering objective by one of the two ro three leading climbers of the era, and a first ascent of a variation to popular rockclimbs by unknowns thirty years later.
First, because the relative difficulty of the first route was vastly greater-- it was unclear if it really possible, unclear if the NPS would allow it, marginal gear, not even clear if retreat could happen and, of course, rescue wasn't a real option.
Second, because in the late 1960s and 1970s, the concept of alpine style developed in opposition to older, expedition mountaineering. You needn't have participated in those debates to grasp the story: Just pick up any of the dozens of standard histories of mountaineering or just get Donini started and then sit back and drink beer.
Turner's ascent is different because of (1) and partly because of (2).
Historical perspective doesn't mean picking up random bits of data from whenever or wherever and then tossing them in a blender as if they were all equal components. When and where something happens matters. That's what "historical perspective" is.
Again, I don't personally give a rat's ass about WoS, and I don't have a personal opinion as to whether or not it was "retrograde" by early 1980s standards. And I remain fairly appalled by the sort of abuse directed at Mark and Richard. But it does matter that it happened right then and swam against what was then a very strong current-- from the Americans on Latok to Messner on Everest --in favor of minimalist undertakings.
There is no longer such a consensus on El Cap. Now, it's just another practice crag-- rap in, live on ledges, rehearse whatever for new FFAs. Drag your bridge circle up a trade route-- the context has changed.
So no, 1959 is not the early 1980s is not 2011.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
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"First, because the relative difficulty of the first route was vastly greater-- it was unclear if it really possible, unclear if the NPS would allow it, marginal gear, not even clear if retreat could happen and, of course, rescue wasn't a real option."
This describes Dave Turner's solo quite well. [except for the NPS bit]
"Again, I don't personally give a rat's ass about..."
Spoken like Warren Harding himself!
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Jul 22, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
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Klk and Ron- I understand there's huge differences in the situations. There's also parallels. I put them out there more as side topics for consideration, not points to prove anything. I can fully appreciate the evolution of style and ethics and know that you can't just "throw things into a blender" and say they're the same thing. That wasn't my intent and I guess I worded it poorly. Again I meant it more as a side conversation not an endorsement of their tactics in '82.
I think Turner's ascent is also different because he was solo, in an area where he was truly alone, not the SE face of El Cap where a rescue is a phone call away.
Pete the fact that you had told Mama as much about being involved in this from a media perspective is great. What would make people not as mad at you at times is if you would let people know critical details like this. There's several posts blasting you in this situation and you're pulling a Nanook and pretending like they're not there. While I admire your ability to take sh#t (bad example in this thread), I think people's perceptions of you might be different if you revealved that sort of info.
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kaitb
Big Wall climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
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Knuckles - Let me correct everyone here on what happened. Pete had emailed my mom stating that he was going to do an article for Rock & Ice and that he had wanted to talk with Ammon and I as soon as we had gotten down from our climb. We found out about this email when we had yet to even had finished Wings of Steel. Both Ammon and I were a little perturbed that we hadn't even finished the climb and someone was already jumping on our story. My mom had written Pete back stating that we didn't agree with what he was doing and that we had planned on writing our own article discussing the history and controversy of the climb.
What Pete used in his R&I piece was information provided by us when we talked with him privately at the bridge discussing the first two pitches and the info he got from my mom as she was reporting here on supertopo to everyone of our progress. At the time, we talked with Pete we didn't know he was going to write anything about WOS. I guess it is a lesson learned.
And yes, Pete can write anything he wants too. I agree to that. It's just there should be a certain amount of respect upon doing so. For instance, asking us upon completion of our climb if we had been planning to write an article? If not, he should have mentioned he wanted to write one. If we said yes we were planning on writing one about our climb, then to maybe ask if he could collaborate with us. All it takes is a little decency in the beginning to avoid conflict in the end.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
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All it takes is a little decency in the beginning to avoid conflict in the end.
Seems like this thought, 30 years ago, would have avoided this whole situation.
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
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Kait
Unfortunately decency isn't Pete's strong suit. I agree that he should've made his intentions much more clear and respected you and Ammon. Thanks for shedding more light on the situation.
The "media" we're used to seeing usually doesn't care about the feelings or respect of those it's reporting on as there's some level of anonymmity. I would hope that Pete would've been different considering his involvement and connection to the community. Perhaps not though.
It seems Pete has a long and somewhat sordid history of miscommunication and general toe-stepping-on. I do think he's relatively harmless and probably meant no disrespect with his actions. There's a big difference between in-considerate and un-considerate. I think in his excitement he just fell into the latter and just didn't really think before acting. Maybe the same could be said of the orignial shitters? No doubt this full cirlce connection will bring an end to this controversy and several thousand post topic. Or maybe not..,
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
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Kait. no offense intended just a bit of advice about talking to the press from someone who has done a fair bit of freelance photojournalism. If you don't want it in the press and often misquoted at that then do not talk to the press. IT Is no secret that Pete has a collum in one of the glossy raggs so he is the press like it or not. You guys are still sitting pretty to write an article but as with all things editiorial related where and if it gets published depends on who you haVE the best relationship with and who is willing to publish your work. Do Not procrastonate. get something good put together ASAP and start shopping it.
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
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Tradman
While you're absolutely right, Kait and Ammon should still be basking in the glow of their send, high fiving and drinking beer at the bridge, not madly typing trying to get it to print first. It's unfortunate to see this play out this way.
Hopefully what Pete would do at this stage is promise to not publish anything until after they get a chance. Maybe Pete can pitch a two parter to the SA team and to Raleigh at R & I? Ammon and Kait do the TR and tell they're perspective and Pete provides some additional historical context.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
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"Pete has a collum in one of the glossy raggs so he is the press like it or not."
No, he got canned a few years back and doesn't write for them anymore.
"Always ask whether your comments are on/off record or are for publication. I had this issue with a Bloomberg reporter yesterday."
That doesn't always work and has in FACT bit me in the arse in the past.
All good, everything has worked itself out. Cheers!
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
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Everything klk is saying verbatim.
Many people discussing wos don't appear to understand that wos is controversial.
As for pete, profiting in ones own recreation and trying to remain thought of as a regular member of that recreation's community has always been a slippery slope. Some are clearly better at it than others.
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