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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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chossyslab may have been ass-u-me-ing that it would be a chossy slab...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Choss wrote
"I hate to say this Doug, especially to you, but i have a sneaky suspicion that you guys rap bolted because you guys werent prepared to climb the scary and potentially deadly runouts that would have been necessary to finish GU ground up. "
Another reason not to say it to Doug is because his role in the climb was more supportive than leading. I don't think he led any of the 5.12 lower pitches nor would have been slated to lead the upper pitches. That would have gone to Sean or one of his other henchmen.
Which just goes to show how stand-up a guy Doug is. He was part of the discussion, logistics, elbow grease and such for this climb, but Sean is right, it's basically Sean's climb in the sense that the Nose was Harding's climb, even though Merry, Dolt and others were part of the team.
FWIW
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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Karl asked me what I meant by regulation. You all have dealt with bureaucracies. When a bureaucracy is tweaked you know for a fact you can never predict their response. That is a given. I spent years fighting the need for regulation doing it by the most direct and effective method of which I could think. Get people focussed on solving the problem. Managers love communities that are a source of support and who are able to solve problems. Let me pose a scenario. Suppose climbers are actively helping a land manager solve a problem for which they don't have adequate resources. Now suppose there are also some climbers who are doing things that are a problem. I don't say this is happening. Just join me for a moment in a supposition. In this imaginary scenario do you think it possible the climbers out there on the front lines are buying time for everyone? Years ago when I was on the front line we had time. Each new pair of hands, each new shoulder applied to the load was a new friend. My point? Whatever happens, WE, that's ALL of us, need to make this work now. And I worry we may have wasted far too much time.
For thirty years we have listened to a melange of reasons, history, style, freedom, me,me,ME, hidden agendas, elitism, better, self interest, natural, harder, 5.12, you name it. Go back up in this thread and re-live it all. The only argument I have enjoyed was the rejoinder that we now outnumber you old farts and your whole world is gone, gone, gone. I hate to tell you but there is a much bigger turd than that in the punchbowl. I remember when you could routinely go climbing, trundle, cut trees, defecate anywhere, even bolt, and know the next glaciers would probably wipe it all out before another person sees it. With the large increase in the number of people the guts have been literally ripped out of the life the "Young farts" think they are about to live. We can no longer do whatever we want, wherever we want, whenever we want. Warren Harding could think that on the Nose. You can't. If you think you can, take a look next to you on the ledge where you are sitting.
I focus momentarily on the old/young dichotomy simply because it is the most transparently absurd. The other arguments are also constructed solely so we don't have to face the problem.
We can no longer do whatever we want, wherever we want, whenever we want.
The new argument that comes up is to the effect, that this is very hard to do, there have been failures, so we don't need to try. OK. So I am looking at what is potentially a 5.16 pitch. The first. Am I to suppose that climbers, feeling as they do, will routinely run away saying, It is too hard! I might fail! It can't be done! Apparently so.
You are all intelligent, courageous and energetic people. Go out and get to work.
Edit:
Survival:
It is hard isn't it? That should draw us to it.
I will try and tell a short story illuminating your last thought. Willie asked me if I wanted to do a 5.8. I had never rested on anything so you may imagine it was quite a surprise when it turned out to be a 5.8 A2?. Willie used an old five pound sledge that he carried in the back pocket of his Sears Roebuck work pants. The bottom of the pocket was gone of course so the cord to the hammer went into the pocket, then out of the bottom and down to the hammer swinging in the breeze below. While hanging from the lip of a big ceiling and trying to get one hit to place a piton he had to pull up the hammer with his teeth and his one free hand till it hung up on his pants. Then he had to wiggle the sledge to get it though the torn pants. What did he do with the hammer after bottoming the pin with one gentle bop? He fed it back through the hole in his pants. So it was, in just my second month of climbing I learned each climber makes up their own climbing and their own difficulty. Without a doubt Willie had several sets of pants with torn back pockets so he would always be able to have the pants he needed for his kind of climbing.
Climb ratings mean absolutely nothing. I learned that right up front.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jstan, that's a hard one to respond to. I'll read it a couple more times.
My first thought was: Yeah n00bs, get busy.
My second thought was: Herding cats on acid.
My third thought was: 5.16 pitch? Uh..would that be ground up trad or......
My fourth thought was: Some of us aren't as intelligent or energetic as you give us credit for.
Edit: jstan, you need to write a book. I'll buy it for sure.
I would love to hear some more of your stories.
Festus, get your a** over to that poetry month thread!!
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Festus
Social climber
Enron by the Sea
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Criminy, Cracko, what are you doing on this thread, anyway? Your expanding Applebee's appetizer ass can hardly lead the south face of Quartz Hill these days, let alone pull the steel ladder bolted to the water tank on the summit.
My advice? Mix in a salad or two. Maybe they could help you out over in the LEB mushroom thread.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Damit Festus.....stay on topic !!!
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Just for the record, the following quote from John's post is not from an article by Pat Ament as he indicates, but by me, Tom Higgins. It is from a 1969 AAJ article. Here is a link to my website for the complete article:
http://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=20&limit=1&limitstart=0
"On our last day in Tuolumne, Bob Kamps and I attempted what looked like the “all time” route in the Meadows--the very center of Fairview’s west face. Starting below a conspicuous roof and a series of small arches, we hoped to climb a steep crack system to the summit bowl. After four full pitches of fantastic climbing on flakes and knobs, we encountered an utterly blank 85” headwall. Utterly blank? As unlikely as this seems for Tuolumne, the wall would simply not go free. We had already used four bolts to protect 5.9 and 5.10 climbing immediately below, would four or five aid bolts now be appropriate? We pondered the situation and finally decided to go down. Here was a route more resistant than any we had previously encountered. Once on the ground, we discussed the free climbing tradition being established in Tuolumne and speculated that perhaps someday the headwall would go free. Then, to the car. Bob wondered if he had lost his camera, whether he would then be camera-shy. I ignored him and suggested we call our half-a-route The Abortion. He suggested we go home."
Indeed, I and patners turned back on many first ascent attempts, sometimes to leave a few bolts to nowhere never to be completed. Other times better or more determined climbers came along and got what we didn't complete (two examples at Pinnacles come to mind). We didn't mind. Failure was integral to the game, the price which made the successes all the more rich.
Another consideration here is the one Bachar makes - while climbs seem like personal and private events, they have more than ideological consequences for climbers holding to different style preferences, especially to young climbers on the rise investing the time and energy to try to better today's standards. For them, a big potential FA prize is now gone. Ye old "Tricksters and Traditionalists" makes this argument, as does a follow on piece, both at my site. It's why gun hunters let bow and arrow hunters go first in certain areas as the season begins, and why climbers in various areas have agreed informally to restrict rap bolting to certain cliffs, leaving other area open to those sticking to traditional styles. Of course, in some areas, such as Pinnacles National Monument, climbers have agreed to ground up only from now on, partly to stop the wrangling about styles and partly under the threat of regulation.
Another point of both style articles at my site is the importance of climbers coming to agreements on style differences. Climbers deserve better than the fuming of style clashes, as in this thread. The resulting tension makes for a constant nasty undercurrent eating away at the camaraderie of the sport. As well, the mix of styles muddies the interpretation of climbing history and achievements, as well as clear credit and attribution around first ascents. One way out, as the referenced style articles suggest, is attention to voluntary, area by area climbing organizations agreeing on bolting and more general climbing styles.
So, for those interested in more on these issues (hardly new, but never ending it seems) and suggestions for improvements, here you go:
http://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=19
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Jacko
Trad climber
Grass Valley Ca.
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Festus, you are the tie breaker.I,m afraid your going to have to voice an opinion on this Topic.Cracko has gone down a path that we can't be proud of..Is he drinking again?? So what's it gonna be Festus??? Russ, don't listen to Festus, the Cubby's have a shot and so do My Giant's????? Jacko
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Tom, thanks for posting. I will read those articles. It's so fascinating to be part of this conversation.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:04am PT
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You of all people I hate to go head to head with. But you just said:
"A simple factor that comes into play on such routes is the time it takes - to approach, ferry loads, find the route, drill, clean in some cases. The logistics involved in these types of endeavors make compromises in style tempting, if not essential, in order to establish the entire climb. The style issues involved need to be looked at in a new light in my opinion"
So it is about convenience after all.
Why not just leave it alone?
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Nate Furman
climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:05am PT
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Doug,
Thank you for putting so much time and effort to co-create a route that lives up to a grand vision. If more climbers approached new routing with such intentionality and consideration (and coupled with a general respect for the environment) I think the resource would be better shape than it is now.
Cheers,
Nate
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:31am PT
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Ksolem wrote: So it is about convenience after all.
Why not just leave it alone?
Funny how two people can read the same thing (Kevin post) and come to two different conclusions.
I didn't see it as convenience at all...But just a different way of looking at big walls like Growing Up!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:36am PT
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What? The hike is too big? Ferrying loads is a pain in the arse? No one has enough time anymore to actually get it done?
So we should re-examine our ethics???
Unless I am stupid that is what he just said.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 10, 2008 - 04:45am PT
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Well, been away and was quickly scanning from the end to see where things are at when I noticed the original 1202 disappeared pretty quick when the poster realized Ksolem's interpretation was on target. Bob's pelthora of interpretations aside, how else can one interpret these two phrases?:
 "...make compromises in style tempting, if not essential, in order to establish the entire climb."
"The style issues involved need to be looked at in a new light..."
The first is clearly saying that logistical inconveniences and hurdles can and should impact 'style'. The second says we should simply take the first statement at face value and so redefine climbing [style (and ethics)] in light of it.
I'd also like to say that the use of the terms 'style' and 'ethics' has been an interesting progression over the course of the thread with the onerous 'ethics' essentially shadowed in favor of the less divisive and intimidating 'style'. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that many folks here might even stretch the point to say there are not, and have never been, 'ethics' involved in climbing (and by extension, if there were, they were far too tattered and soiled for any further utility). All in all, to me it brings to mind John Cusack's character in the film 'Grosse Point Blank' who admits to 'a certain "moral flexibility"' - but of course here, we'd probably have to rewrite it to 'a certain "flexibility of style"' in the cause of unity and political correctness.
I can certainly empathize with the Growing Up team encountering an end to free climbing. But, at the point free climbing ended on encountering the impasse of a blank head wall ending the [natural] line, was the decision to construct a 'route' to the top by other means purely and solely a matter of style? It's a legitimate question from my perspective. It is definitely a route now - but clearly not a 'natural' free line by any definition if it required a bolt ladder to connect the lower natural line with one derived of extensive top-down reconnaissance and construction.
I have no doubt whatsoever the route is a 'state of the art' construction and possessing high quality climbing. My concerns, other than the obvious 'means vs. ends' quandry, are entirely around the 'precedent' it sets both in the Valley and far beyond as a 'style' signal or aleart. Many here see this [hybrid] line as a possible compromise of 'styles' (and dare I say, 'ethics') while others of us see it as a less than ideal precedent regardless of the quality of the result. And when these issues are overlaid with ongoing subthreads of the potential for the imposition of bolting and climbing regulations around the country, as John suggested, they do take on a broader context of some import.
Look forward to catching up on what I've missed and wanted to say I'm also quite thankful we've been able to discuss all these issues and free-ranging ideas in a relatively forthright and cordial manner even if we appear to be making only limited movement towards anything looking like a consensus.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 10, 2008 - 10:13am PT
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Ksolem wrote: What? The hike is too big? Ferrying loads is a pain in the arse? No one has enough time anymore to actually get it done?
So we should re-examine our ethics???
Unless I am stupid that is what he just said.
The style has been re-examine in RMNP and others areas (look at the link I posted upthread) and the results are not as grim as you and others hope them to be.
No massive bolting projects in the Park, no wave of sport climbers descending on the walls with just quickdraws and bolt on holds and no waiting lines...just a couple of beautiful routes in a amazing alpine setting that a lot of people can enjoy if they are willing to make the 6-7 mile hike in.
By what I read from Doug and Sean...Sean route was neither easy, conveient and very, very time consuming.
I am trying to give you na-sayers a little proof that sometimes the means do justify the ends and the end is not as bad as you think it is going to be. Here is another route in the Park...considered a classic and was done in a "different style".
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/colorado/alpine_rock/rmnp__rock/105764076
Ksolem...I think Kevin is saying re-examine the style. That always been a part of climbing and will continue to be so.
Ksolem...let me get this right...you would have no problem with the route and the bolt count as long as they started on the ground and when up.
This has been/is a great debate and conversation....thanks to all who have been honest and open. These issues really do need to be discuss in a civil way.
Joe...How many big walls have you done??
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Apr 10, 2008 - 10:58am PT
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Don't forget fixing 800 feet on the Salathe FA. Just read about it in Camp 4...
One thing I'd like to say about my role in Growing Up, is the way I view Southern Belle and Karma. It seems that being involved in this project has put me into some sort of sport climbing rap-bolters camp, but I ve got to say while I toiled up there, looking at both routes and their features from the ground, that I don't resent how few bolts or how far the runs were on the routes. I, for one, don't think bolts "should" be added to SB. The route is a statement, a culmination of mental, psychological, and physical skill and stamina, a culmination that doesn't occur overnight in the development of a climber. And anyone who is willing to put that kind of commitment out there, knows where to find it. I think it is great, awesome and amazing. If the FA party or approved surrogates, put in a few more bolts on Karma, say, I would go climb it. One camp here might say, "Well, that's why they DIDN'T put more bolts in. Keeps the FLUFF off." And I read you, good buddy, loud and clear.
Which brings me to one observation about this thread. We all climb for different reasons. I'm 27 years old. I have read every thread and stitch of climbing lit. I could get my hands on since I was about 19. From Gaston to Perrin. I've studied Yosemite climbing history like I was getting a degree in it. Like many people here have. I've only just this year been to a gym, as I moved to Berkeley, and in six months, I've been three times. I don't need climbing to be safe. I'm not trying to change climbing to fit my values. I'm not trying to impose my vision of what climbing "should" be upon others. I've seen enough of that in the climbing world. I climb to have fun.
When we were up there, our decision, or at least what I contributed to the discussions at the campfire, wasn't really related to the surrounding routes. We climbed a feature. It stopped. We could see amazing terrain. Orange-slick, non edged patina, no stemming for stances, no hook edges, nada. We decided to climb it and bolt it how we would like to find it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:25am PT
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Healyj wrote
"My concerns, other than the obvious 'means vs. ends' quandry, are entirely around the 'precedent' it sets both in the Valley and far beyond as a 'style' signal or aleart. "
I wonder to what extent it's a precedent? We already talked about the rap-bolted sport routes and El Cap free variations, these is also "precedent" over in the ground-up run-out world of Glacier Point Apron.
Most know the story of Hall of Mirrors and the fact that they felt they had to drill a aid bolt ladder to get pro on a hard pitch. Caused a big stink at the time.
By far, the most commonly climbed line up the Apron to the rim is Galactic Hitchhiker (11b, 39 pitches in the Topo, 26 or so if you run pitches together) This route was equipped ground up and then top down. In fact, the FA party told me they intended to add some bolts on "the olympic wall" in the middle of the climb but didn't get around to it. It fell between the cracks of equipping the top and bottom.
That was quite a few years back. Didn't seem to start a stampede.
Some folks have praised Sean and crew for being open and honest about their style but those concerned with precedent might prefer to advocate "Don't ask, don't tell"
I have to believe that, for reasonable reasons, if Kurt and Cos didn't get busted on the Muir and managed to free it, they wouldn't have published their power drill anchor replacement tactics publicly. I doubt they were the first party to use power drills to that effect.
Perhaps it's just a legal issue, and perhaps there are folks who feel their experience and judgement allows them to make calls that they wouldn't trust lesser climbers to make. (Like Mommy and Daddy get to smoke a bong and have a few beers but Junior isn't supposed to)
This, of course, has it's own issues, but I thought I'd bring it up because "Lack of Precedent" in the valley often really mean "Lack of common knowledge" There's something to be said for it, but it's a huge grey area.
Peace
Karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:46am PT
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The original 1202 post said:
"Ksolem, I hate to be the messenger, but...that's not what he said."
Warbler did not say "No one has enough time anymore to actually get it done."
I took it down because, for one, I was essentially calling somebody an idiot ["stupid"], which I try to avoid on the I-net. I also didn't want to get into a war of words. Lastly, I thought I'd let Warbler explain for himself what he meant.
Warbler recently put up a fantastic sounding route, taking several weeks (months?) up in Tenaya Canyon. I don't think he's afraid of carrying loads, hiking, or spending time putting up routes.
Also, the Growing Up team took months to establish their route. They hiked. They ferried loads. They spent time.
Let's face it. Some folks, no matter what, will not accept the style of GU. They will pick every tiny crevice, hoping to find the magic key that will make the GU team cry Uncle. They are just dying to hear them say "OK, you are all right, we f'ed up. We'll remove all the bolts." Nothing shy of that will satisfy.
There is no thought process. They are not part of a community of people thinking things through. There is only "My way or the highway."
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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Joe wrote: Bob's pelthora of interpretations aside.
Joe...unlike you I given a number of reality based examples of what has happened and what the results have been. Kevin and Karl have also given a number of reality based breaches of styles in the Valley and that what Sean did on the wall was not something that hasn't been done before in the Valley and other areas.
Kevin...I tell Jim you said hello...he comes into my restaurant quite often.
He may not be the best example to use now...has he can be happily seen clipping bolts in Boulder Canyon, Shelf Road and other sport climbing areas along the Front Range. You would find his take now on his style back then quite amusing.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:52am PT
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k-man -- "They will pick every tiny crevice, hoping to find the magic key that will make the GU team cry Uncle."
That holds true to a lot of arguments here about stuff.
Pretty pathetic, huh?
Go climbing people, the gloom and doom of the world will not be determined by you, it is set in stone by Providence.
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