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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 11, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
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That's funny. That may well be the last time I fired that pistol...
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 11, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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"maybe what would help would be even more guns in the mall."
I've hear that guns are banned in the mall. Prohibited. There are signs stating such. You are welcome to speculate on what would or could have been if the signs were not there stating "Guns prohibited". Regardless, all the honest folks had left theirs in the car safe or at home. As demanded.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Dec 11, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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Kris, you are correct in that I misused a figure of speach. Obviously, no can actually know how often a guns presence escalates things. Having personally witnessed two incidents where a minor traffic altercation turned into a shooting no doubt prejudices my point of view. One resulted in two murders, both sent young men to prison for long stays.
What can be known for certain is that if no gun is present, no gunplay will occur. That is what I really meant to say, and I apologize for mis-speaking.
As you noted in D.C. property crimes went up. How many of those were aimed at obtaining a gun via a burglary? And violent crime has been dropping all over the country for years as has been well documented by the FBI, so more concealed weapons in D.C. were not the panacea the gun lobby made them out to be.
The change in gun laws in D.C. roughly coincided with the end of the crack cocaine boom, so there were a lot fewer young men engaged in combat for their corner spots. The demographics of the area have also been changing as some areas that were previously very low income and very high unemployment experienced an influx of the huge numbers of new government employees and contractors brought in by the "war on terror". They had to live somewhere and many very bad neighborhoods underwent significant gentrification as the newcomers sought reasonably priced real estate.
There's no simplistic explanation to be had, no matter how badly the pro-gun faction wants to spin it. The "armed society is a polite society" platitude might be judged against the backdrop of history.
In one of the most well armed parts of the wild West, Tombstone Arizona, you had to surrender your weapons to the law to be allowed into town. It was the only way they were able to curtail the near constant hail of lead the town had been experiencing. If that is your idea of a polite society you should probably move to the Gaza strip.
More guns equal more gun violence and more gun accidents, that's the bottom line. And by the way, I was an avid hunter growing up. by the time I got through the sixth grade I'd bagged two deer, hundreds of rabbits and many hundreds of birds, mostly quail with a fair number of ducks and one pheasant.
I don't hate guns, I actually love to shoot. I stopped hunting as I became more environmentally aware and personally witnessed the numbers of wildlife in my neck of the woods (4 corners) drop fairly dramatically. Now I would much rather see wild animals in the woods than take them home, never to be seen again. The loss of habitat in the West is disturbing and must be reversed. The hunting of top predators doesn't help either. What passes for big game just isn't as big as it used to be.
So don't paint me as a gun hater. I'm just realistic about things. Not many of the NRA crowd can make that claim. The NRA has turned into an anti-government, un-American extremist group in my point of view.
Our country needs to have more reasonable gun policies and we can only get there with considerate discussion. And at this point that seems out of reach of the pro gun lobby. The inability to compromise isn't a starting point for reasoned discussion.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 11, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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Our country needs less people.
We need to stop letting any immigrant in.
Need to stop expanding at such a rapid rate.
Need less Harris Ranch's, and more Wild Life preserves.
Need more cops, not lawyers.
Need more of these (Tent City Jails)
http://www.mcso.org/JailInformation/TentCity.aspx
And less of these
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 12, 2012 - 12:53am PT
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Having personally witnessed two incidents where a minor traffic altercation turned into a shooting no doubt prejudices my point of view.
Seriously you have personally witnessed to minor traffic altercations escalate into gunfights?? Where?
I reject your Tombstone analogy. The guys shooting up the town were drunk desperate criminals. Hardly the law abiding citizen whose right to own guns I advocate.
The inability to compromise isn't a starting point for reasoned discussion.
Maybe I misunderstood your position. I read “no guns, no gunplay.” I also read the claim that “more often than not” when a gun is present “gunplay” will ensue. I still can’t figure out how that is misusing a figure of speech. Anyway surely you can see how I would take your position as hard line without interest in compromise based on your statements. I’m glad you’re not a gun hater, but you sure did paint yourself as one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2012 - 02:30am PT
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Well, fortunately this whack was clearly incompetent with weapons and we got off extremely lucky compared to what could have gone down. It's getting to the point where they're going to need to put swat team members on a daily rotation through malls with a decent weapon on hand in the security office. Too much damage can be done before regular cops or a swat team outside a mall can respond and get in the door.
And with regard to armed citizens taking on a well-armed and armored fellow gun nut of even moderate competence with weapons? Right. Sorry, I wouldn't count on more ST gun guys responding effectively than I can count on one hand and that's on a good day.
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dogtown
Trad climber
Cheyenne, Wyoming and Marshall Islands atoll.
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Dec 12, 2012 - 06:24am PT
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My bud Jeff and I and his Apache gunship that has turned people in to pink spary with his awesome chain cannon.
And yes we are gun nuts!!It's a Wyoming thing.
Got terrorists? Not much crime in the hood or the state for the matter. BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE FIRE ARMS.Well not all but a lot. Lots of laws on the books regarding guns already. It also should remain a state thing keep the fed out of it.
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jahil
Social climber
London, Paris, WV & CA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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Looks like all you gun nuts failed to protect 27 people in Connecticut today. Enough of your stupid whining 2nd amendment bullsh*t, you all deserve to lose your toys, no exceptions, every single one of you.
We dont need a militia to protect us from anyone, we all need protection from the NRA whack jobs and the destruction that you enable.
steve
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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Well, fortunately this whack was clearly incompetent with weapons
Unfortunately not the case with the latest.
Susan
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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Looks like all you gun nuts failed to protect 27 people in Connecticut today. Enough of your stupid whining 2nd amendment bullsh*t, you all deserve to lose your toys, no exceptions, every single one of you.
We dont need a militia to protect us from anyone, we all need protection from the NRA whack jobs and the destruction that you enable.
well said
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
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Enough of your stupid whining 2nd amendment bullsh*t, you all deserve to lose your toys, no exceptions, every single one of you.
So, a monster in human form commits a heinous act, and instead of trying to find a way to identify and stop such individuals you come up with the usual knee jerk reaction that somehow this is the fault of people like me who need, obviously, to be punished and have our liberties taken away, as if that will help.
I deserve to lose? I am not the one who is committing the evil.
I understand your frustration and anger. I feel it too, directed differently though. My rage is directed at the individual who is capable and willing to do this thing. And I am frustrated that there was no one at the scene who could defend those innocent victims.
I am not just making the usual point about someone at the scene having a gun. Rather, it will be interesting to see as time passes how many clues there were that this guy was nuts. Clues which went ignored.
I hate to say this, but it is a more logical conclusion than yours. If our children are among our post precious and valuable creations, perhaps putting them all together in one place with no security whatsoever is not such a smart idea.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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Outlaw those horrible, violent video games.
We train and desensitize our kids to guns and violence from a young age.
Then when they're older and depressed, on drugs, or whatever, and have access to guns....
bad sh#t happens.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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That is nothing but doublespeak and rationalization.
Please explain.
I tried to make my point clearly using language. You come back saying I am using "doublespeak and rationalization" but make no example. This is intellectually weak. If you agree with Jahil that taking away my guns and those in the hands of other non crazy Americans will somehow magically stop such acts of evil committed by insane people please explain your logic instead of lust uttering nonsense put downs and insults without substance.
And what is "Seriously f*#ked up" about the suggestion that some security at our schools might be wise?
I think DRJefe's observation above is a good one.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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My bud Jeff and I and his Apache gunship that has turned people in to pink spary with his awesome chain cannon.
sweet.
No desensitization here in America!
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
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My bud Jeff and I and his Apache gunship that has turned people in to pink spary with his awesome chain cannon.
And yes we are gun nuts!
doesn't impress me dude.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
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Dogtown's post get my vote as the most idiotic of 2012.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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Ksolem, Nicely put.
Dogtown???
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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I was trying to think of an argument to own a gun. I own a few, I never go out and shoot them and in general am unimpressed with firearms in general. To be honest I haven't really thought much lately about why someone should have a right to own a gun or not own one. I then thought back to the LA riots that I lived and worked through. I was working at a fire station in Hollywood at the time. I remember after all hell broke loose the LAPD apologizing to us and asking if we were armed? They realized they would not be able to help us, we were on our own. That night while our truck was responding g to one of thousands of fires a guy pulled up on the drivers side of the truck and fired into the cab striking our driver I the throat. If not for the quick thinking of one of the fireman he would have died. The fireman reached up and pulled the air brake and also stuck his finger into the hole in the side of Scott's neck stopping the profuse bleeding. Scott survived but suffers to this day from speech impairment and motor deficit. What also struck me during the riots, as if one of my co workers being shot wasn't enough was the way the business community in Holkywood and all over LA Took up arms to defend themselves and their businesses. I saw owners on roofs with rifles defending their property and homes in some cases while buildings next door that had no protection were looted and burned to the ground.
I soon started carrying a weapon with me to work and continued to for several months afterward. I fortunetly never had to use it.
The riots reminded me that things can change in an instant and that I can't always rely on the local law enforcement for my families protection. I hope I never have to use my gun but it gives me a little piece of mind knowing that I know how to use it if God forbid the need ever arises.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
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What Tami says about guns being controlled in Canada but people getting guns is interesting. We have Switzerland, a land full of automatic rifles with nothing like this, contrasted with Mexico, a land of gun control yet paradoxically full of gun violence. I think Anastasia is onto something I've not considered before.
"The whole gun debate is distracting, we are avoiding the real issue. We as a nation are suffering because we lack a proper social structure. We don't have town squares, a place where people can connect to those living around them. This whole individual bubble isolation isn't working. We need to fix how we relate, be a real neighborhood instead of just people sharing a street and never talking to each other. Seriously folks, isn't it obvious???
People are getting sick and no one is noticing or... Helping... That needs to change BIG TIME. We are social animals. We need each other."
Anything worth saying once is worth saying twice.
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