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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jan 30, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
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The Nose of El Cap is not a great analogy. Chop the finishing bolt ladders? Anyone can still get to the top via another route of equivalent difficulty (eg Salathe) or even by hiking. Besides, the Nose gets done every day. Guarantee it would be re-established in hours.
A better analogy is with some of the early bolt ladders in the Fisher Towers. These are true summits, and only technical climbing can reach them.
Especially the Colorado Northeast Ridge of Kingfisher. Harvey Carter was frustrated that he'd missed out on the FA of the largest tower of the group, the Titan, so he kinda did a mini-Maestri on the next-biggest, Kingfisher:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/kingfisher/105716856
Lots of bolts. An obvious, wide crack that ascends the final 100 feet was ignored in favor of the blank "diretissima" arete just left. This was back in 1962. Fisher Towers area has great weather but the rock is umm, unusual, so there is a slow learning curve as to what is possible. Locating crack systems takes practice as there is dried mud covering much of the rock. Several early routes have lots of bolts.
Anyway, the next-easiest route to the summit of Kingfisher is damn difficult. The debate that would follow chopping Carter's route would be very interesting.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 30, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
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Finally a more appropriate analogy. TFPU Crunch.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 30, 2012 - 02:11pm PT
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The Nose of El Cap is not a great analogy. Chop the finishing bolt ladders? Anyone can still get to the top via another route of equivalent difficulty (eg Salathe) or even by hiking. Besides, the Nose gets done every day. Guarantee it would be re-established in hours.
for sure. just another evidence, were it be necessary, of the double standards
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 30, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
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Crunch,
great analogy. Harvey as CM.
Many people don't know about the Fishers. (and they are the lucky ones)
enzolino,
you have neglected Marco Pedrini.
Cumbre blew my mind (and I was sitting near Jeff Lowe and know he was likewise impressed).
Riding the compressor like a motorcycle? Brilliant.
Anyway Bird might have considered Maestri a pussy but Jim's views have morphed substantially over the years to say the least.
It would be great if he weighed in now.
Even though he hated the act, the route itself was a crowning achievement for a guy previously known as head kahuna of C4.
And what of the chopping now?
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 30, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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Thanks Gene.
enzolino,
you have neglected Marco Pedrini.
Cumbre blew my mind (and I was sitting near Jeff Lowe and know he was likewise impressed).
Riding the compressor like a motorcycle? Brilliant. Piton,
I haven't neglected Marco Pedrini ... but Marco Pedrini is ... was Swiss ... (died rappeling on the Drus ...)
And Cumbre is one of my favorite videos ... too crazy ... too magic ...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 30, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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Oops.
Thought he was further south.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 30, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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LOL.:-)
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Tahoe climber
climber
Davis these days
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Jan 30, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
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Some great debate here, and undoubtably one of the best threads I've ever read. I very much respect both sides of this debate, and love that many of the climbing greats from many countries have chimed in with their opinions. Wonderful reading and very inspiring, regardless of which side you come down on. SO much cooler than the Super Bowl!
I'm in support of K&K's chopping, as was most of the most experienced and educated and knowledgeable climbers. For example Rolo. And for example Kelly Cordes, whose dialogue above was well-reasoned, educated and most importantly, RIGHT.
And I also contend that Maestri himself showed signs of agreement with this action, 40 years ago.
Doesn't his story show that even he began removing his own bolts on the descent from his final summit attempt? But he ran out of time and motivation and gave up and left?
Boys and girls, if EVEN HE knew it was wrong, what exactly are you trying to protect? What more obvious action can you follow than his?
As for the vote, 30 out of 40 isn't enough people for any kind of a poll, study or democratic process, so the vote NO wasn't even close to legit.
They did the right thing. The pictures show all that you need to know. A monstrosity of a bolting job that has been LONG overdue. Just look at the pictures again. They tell you everything!
Good on ya, K&K - proud work. Wish you could have finished the job, but I appreciate the effort, and will stand with you in telling all the other concerned citizens to man up and do the route the way it should go, not by some clip up that now goes free anyway.
History my ASS.
Maestri, though undeniably talented, was either temporarily crazy, or an idiot, or such an egomaniac that he was not quite rational until the end when he saw the light and began removing them.
It was an awful abomination that would have been erased LONG ago if it was more accessible. This time it was, because the guys flew up the route and had some extra time in a good weather window.
My 2 cents, which is just an opinion after happily digging through it all -
Aaron
PS: Huge thank you for all posters who kept this debate pretty civil, and pretty climbing focused. Definitely why I lurk on the forum, and one of the cooler phenomena that I've witnessed here.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Jan 30, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
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so just what kind of climbing makes you go crazy?
and where can i get this?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 30, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
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How's about some of you Eye-Talians give ol' Cesare a ring, then grab your laptop and go visit him. Maybe he doesn't know how to reply to this post, and could use a bit of computer help from one of you?
We would very much love to hear from him!
Bring on Maestri! Maestri! Maestri!
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djb
Boulder climber
Syracuse, NY
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Jan 31, 2012 - 12:02am PT
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I keep reading all these post that support the chopping and i just don't get it. when i heard the first report of the ascent and bolt chopping i was psyched for them. however, once the true story came out that there was not consensus and they did it "secretively" I changed my opinion 180. to me the past has nothing to do with why someone would support their act. they did it in total disregard of the locals and without thinking about parties who were behind them that had planned on using the bolts. makes me sick to my stomach...the arrogance and selfishness, even if people were supporting the chopping. that doesn't matter. you should respect the climber that immediatley behind you. if it was so important to the climbing community it should have been done in an organized fashion, allowing parties (such as Lama!) to figure out a new plan of attack. they lied about their intentions saying they hadn't thought about it before they summited, yet state they decided to use a belay because they knew they weren't going to chop it. then hypocritically chose to avoid chopping some bolts because their friends coming up needed them. then stating that many climbers had fun on the mountain, but today is a new era of Cerro Torre. how f'n arogant could you be. I'm an american and I date a canadian....we both think we suck. and btw, after reading their explanation she looked at me and said, "what a couple of obnoxious, arrogant a-holes."
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 31, 2012 - 12:17am PT
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Oh sh#t over a 1000 comments! Since I can care less to read everything I will throw my 2cents.
Personally I think it would not matter if the bolts stayed. Them being there and every party climbing some other route is a big enough statement. Don't have to chop it, just don't climb it. Not sure how I feel about someone chopping someone's route, even though it was not supposed to be a route (IMO). Just can't pick a side. Feels like they did the right thing, but it is kind of disrespectful from the other side...
Last year huge majority of parties climbed other routes, not compressor. So that says something.
General public doesn't give a sh#t about these routes. No one cares. To general public climbing Everest is 100000x the accomplishment than Cerro Torre. So no one should care about what this route represented to general public. Cuz general public simply doesn't know/care.
And why care about everyone thinks? Everyone has an opinion. BUT, it is already chopped now! Done deal! Adios! I don't think anyone will re bolt it..? If someone does, that would be quite a hit for another thread.
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house of cards
climber
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Jan 31, 2012 - 12:17am PT
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To anyone that believes that Argentine climbers are against the action taken by Kruk and Kennedy I suggest you do your best to read spanish and read this letter from Sebastian de la Cruz, together with Jose Luis Fonrouge the greatest Argentine alpinist and climber of all time.
http://www.lacachania.com.ar/noticia.php?id_nota=201&id_seccion=3
Seba's resume: Fitz Roy at 16, first winter ascent of Fitz Roy at 17, Torre at 19, K2 at 25 and many many other brillant climbs.
Comesaņa and De la Cruz support the action. No need to mention Garibotti who has made his views more than clear.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 31, 2012 - 01:57am PT
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in the land of right and wrong
in the land of manichean
in the land of rock ethicists
in the land of coherence
... those who like to be fags with everybody's else arse
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house of cards
climber
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Jan 31, 2012 - 02:16am PT
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Lama: What's your opinion about what Jason K. and Hyden K did?
They climbed a route without using bolts, that is actually ok, that's their style and it's fine. But what they did during the decent, to remove the bolts, was not very intelligent. I believe they were not entitled to do it.
What do you think about the discussion that was triggered regarding Maestri's bolts? Is it fair to use them to reach the summit? Is it fair to use any mean to achieve the goal?
I think the matter is more about destroying or not. In my opinion, for the first ascent (Maestri's), he was entitled to do on the mountain whatever he wanted to do, and at the same time he should have made his best. In both cases, adding or removing bolts, destroy the route. It's destroying what some body else has done and nobody is entitled to destroy it. The issue are not your skills, whether you're able to climb with or without bolts, but the fact thyt they were on the wall, then who is entitled to add or remove bolts if you're not able to climb (the route)?
Curious to read that the guy who was responsible for adding some 40 bolts to the Compressor route is now up on his horse being righteous. Nice consistency David! seems like you have more than a little growing up to do.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 31, 2012 - 02:39am PT
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thank you djb!
your testimony helps a lot in avoiding the easy generalizaion about noth americans.
so they are not all the same arrogant imperialist a-holes that one could evince by reading this thread
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The cad
climber
Does it matter, really?!?
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Jan 31, 2012 - 03:03am PT
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Curious to read that the guy who was responsible for adding some 40 bolts to the Compressor route... Curious to see yet one more time how most of the people who write here never bother to get correctly informed, or to read other people comments.
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The cad
climber
Does it matter, really?!?
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Jan 31, 2012 - 03:19am PT
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"Certainly this [a rotting piton removed by Hill from the dihedral prior to the Great Roof], the numerous piton scars on other sections, and the fact that there are chipped holds on the Jardine Traverse detract from the purity of the route as a 'free climb'. But these elements were all part of what marked the history of human passage and our evolving definition of success."
--Lynn Hill, from "El Capitan's Nose Climbed Free", AAJ 1994
THIS is a class act IMVHO.
Quite different from what K&K did on their descent.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 31, 2012 - 03:56am PT
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Good post Cad.
I think many people stil don't get it. That the issue is not just about chopping or bolting, but the meaning attributed to something done in the past which, good or bad, is part of our learning process.
Everybody is pulling a famous name on his side. But in my view this shows that the chopping of the Compressor route had still to wait.
Hey Enzolino,
Has Signore Maestri offered an opinion ? This discussion revolves around ideals of respect for other people's work and their feelings, so how does he feel? I think Maestri couldn't care less for the bolts of the Compressor route. He always said that he hates Cerro Torre.
But I believe he cares about Respect. And this is what was missing before the chopping of the route and also afterwards.
Salvaterra wanted to ask him to remove them, but he never did it.
What puzzles me most of Maestri, is his vehement fight to scream to the world about his route in 1959.
The evidence is strongly against him.
And I don't think is just a matter of "ego".
Could it be to give honor to the memory of Egger?
To keep alive his credibility?
Or is somewhere there a missing piece of the Cerro Torre puzzle?
Wrong face? Wrong recollections?
Just some thougths ...
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