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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Recent news in the McClatchy papers.
http://www.fresnobee.com/2014/01/31/3743403/california-drought-produces-thirst.html
Rep. David Valadao: "Families and farmers alike are not receiving the water they need to meet their basic, everyday needs."
"Sen. Dianne Feinstein indicated Friday she will introduce her own California water bill early next week. Some significant differences will separate the House and Senate versions, leading either to eventual compromise or ceaseless finger-pointing."
Rep. Devin Nunes: "The time for talk is over. It's time for the Senate to join us in providing critical assistance to the people of California."
"Politically, the House bill divides the state."
Ceaseless blather
I would rather
Chain the lawyers
To the bottom of the bay.
Any day.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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I'm from BC and for the last 30 years we have had summer watering restrictions even though we have more water than you. I have no pity for California right now. Waste not want not.
Tooth, I'm from BC too, as you know. I see the same behaviour in California and Canada. People let the kitchen tap run while doing whatever. Very little awareness re. water conservation.
The summer before last in Revelstoke (BC), the town was literally about to run out of (treated) water, because some people were letting their sprinklers run 24/7. City workers had to drive around and turn off outside taps. That sparked an ongoing debate as to whether the town should install water meters and charge for useage. A lot of people in BC, my parents included, think water should be free, no matter how much one uses.
If only being Canadian solved the problem... plus we have the tar sands...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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As far as cities go, I'm an advocate of pricing that encourages good practices.
For example, in my town, LA, the lowest rate for water use, tier 1, is 68 HCF/63 days. Each HCF is 748 gallons....or 807 gal/day.
The first tier usage for each meter is calculated based on lot size, temperature zone, and household size.
My actual usage is 5 HCF, which works out to 59 gal a day.
I am perhaps somewhat radical in my usage, but the average is 127 gal/per capita/day.
In my mind, the tier 1 should be around 70 gal, and the rate should be REDUCED. The next tier should run up to 102 gal (the recommended 20% cut), and be about the same. Above 102, lets say to 200, double the current price.
Above 200, quadruple the current price. Above 300, 10x the current price.
If idiots want to water their cement, fine. Let them pay through the nose for it, and fund the cost of expensive water sources.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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between 70 and 80% of all water in the state goes to ag. much of that water is delivered at far-below-market-value by taxpayer subsidies.
the only urban areas with water deficiencies are those who are lined up behind ag users.
if we charged water based on cost, most of california agriculture would collapse tomorrow. if we charged water by market price, the entire state would collapse.
urban users are basically the only users in the state who pay anything like cost or market-based rates for their water.
the problem is that water is vastly over-allocated. the new acreas of almonds/walnuts/apricots in that article that mouse linked, are making things rapidly worse, because much of that new plantation is mining groundwater. as a result, we now have a 1200 square mile subsidence zone in the san joaquin valley. most of the sacramento valley subsided years ago, and continues.
and now eastern contra costa is sinking fast.
LA-- and the entire MWD in SOCal, represent one of the most responsible groups of water useres in the entire state.
southern san joaquin represents the least responsible group of water users in the state. botof the current proposal-- devin/nunes and brown, propose we provide more subsidized water to the lower san joaquin. that is to say, at the moment, we have a complete vaccuum of political leadership. i foresee no change in that situation.
water is already vastly overallocated in this state, and water conservation by residential users isnt going to do anything more than scrape the tip of that iceberg.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Is the problem with almonds that they are being planted on acreage that wasn't previously farmed, and thus increasing water use, or that almonds use more water than other crops that were previously planted there (which doesn't make too much sense, I'd think trees used less water).
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Is the problem with almonds that they are being planted on acreage that wasn't previously farmed, and thus increasing water use, or that almonds use more water than other crops that were previously planted there (which doesn't make too much sense, I'd think trees used less water).
it's both. almonds esp in the last 10 yrs are going into what used to be rangeland. look at all the new ones going in there outside oakdale-- many of them obvious from the 120. as small ranchers go under, the land gets rezoned or sold off for orchard land. 80% of those almonds are going to export markets.
but almonds (and most other trees) also use more water than most row crops because they have to be watered year round. row crops that fallow are watered only in season. and almond tree takes 3-4 years, typically, to fruit. that means each new tree is going to get watered year-round for 3-4 years before it even produces its first cash crop.
there's no fallowing of orchards. until you've run out of water or the almond boom is over, and which point you tear them all out and put in the next market chaser.
almonds are all or nothing. spinach (for instance) lets you plant, water, harvest, then fallow. even if you're alternating row crops ( a common practice), most fields will have down seasons when the taps get turned off. it also gives you more flexibility during drought years.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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some great and learned discussion!
water is already vastly overallocated in this state, and water conservation by residential users isnt going to do anything more than scrape the tip of that iceberg.
An interesting point of view, with a lot of truth, for the State as a whole.
But not necessarily for the city involved. For LA, for example, a significant cut in usage would move the city much closer to a situation where the city moves away from needing distant water sources. The less is needed, the easier it is.
It seems like for the State, the only way forward is through serious regulation of agricultural practices, particularly drawing of groundwater.
How feasible that is, I've no idea.
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Sredni Vashtar
Social climber
The coastal redwoods
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woot, we's gots anuvva storm comin' in, winter storm 'Orion' aka some rain n snow. its been damp here on the insular peninsula for a few days now, can I hand wash my unimog this summer, hose my acres of tarmac drive and flush my 1.7 gallon toilet?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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a significant cut in usage would move the city much closer to a situation where the city moves away from needing distant water sources.
i don't know what you mean by this-- there's no conceivable future (short of free and easy desalinization) in which LA could dispense with the OV-LA Aqueduct.
All the hype about low-flow toilets is just that-- most residential water goes to landscaping. You could drastically cut DWP and MWD water demand simply by banning non-native grass lawns.
I'm all for water conservation, but most of the reporting on this topic-- and most of the posting I see in threads like this or hear in conversation, even among educated folks-- is appallingly misinformed. THe water crisis in Cali is largely a problem with subsidized water for agribusiness, and there will be nothing but tears until Californians and their elected representatives deal with reality.
The individual cities that are going to be hard-hit are places in the coastal ranges and SIerra foothills who are junior rights holders without access to big out-of-basin transfers. Having Angelenos stop flushing the toilet does nothing for genuine water scarcity in the areas where it's dire.
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AlanDoak
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Barker Dam had water in it on my last visit to Jtree. Your welcome LA.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Klk writes:
"You could drastically cut DWP and MWD water demand simply by banning non-native grass lawns."
How is that possible?
Every time I get a good carpeting of native vegetation going, The County comes by and issues me a "Weed Abatement Notice".
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John M
climber
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not sure I agree with removing land from ag. Perhaps the solution is to do more to promote less wasteful irrigation techniques, and perhaps regulate what crops can be grown. One way to regulate would be to charge the true price for water delivery.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Rice. Why do we need to grow rice in CA? How about growing it in the naturally flooded/wet parts of the world? Seems beyond silly. But I'm not a farmer, so maybe there's a good reason.
There are weird anomalies in groundwater basins. In the Box Springs/Moreno Valley area (Perris Valley south watershed) the groundwater table is rising at between 6"-3' per year over the last few decades. Over near Lake Perris, it's only at 10-12' below surface at points.
MoVal used to be ag lands, and some of the local entities used to pump groundwater for their water supply. Those wells have been out of service for about 30-50 years and supply is now imported, and the ag irrigation pumping is almost entirely gone. With the lack of pumping, recharge off lake perris, and inflow from the Box Springs area, this little patch of IE desert is going to be a lake in another 20 years.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Tx, Khanom. The 2 key pts in that Hansen presentation neatly summarize what everyone in the field has known for years:
First, nn all of the arid west, beef production is the single-largest user of water. That's where the alfalfa goes. folks usually cite the 2600 gallons of water for each 6 oz steak metric. In Cali, alfalfa now also appears to be going to the new megadairies in the southern San Joqauin.
Second, on a statewide basis, no amount of conservation or tunneling will be enough, even if we aren't (as Lynn INgram and many others believe) in a mega-drought. Ag land is going to have to come out of production.
And that's why the almonds are such a ripe example of the corruption of our water distribution in the state. Virtually all of that almond use on that chart has emerged in the last ten years. Almonds have been going in-- often on land that wasn't getting irrigated-- during the height of a drought. That can happen only because 1. CVP and some of the SWP water subsidizes growers (no one pays anything like market for the water) and 2; folks are water mining. Growers are rapidly pumping the groundwater out of the Sac and SJ valleys in order to export almonds to China.
The acceleration of subsidence in the last ten years correlates almost perfectly with the increase in almond pumping in those areas. We are literally paying farmers to pump the Sac and Sj dry, then we're paying again to fix the infrastructure-- including the publicly subsidized irrigation canals --getting damaged by subsidence. And we're going to pay again when the next flood hits with more damage and greater floodzone because the ground is lower.
I'm not crazy about the way the US has chosen to subsidize obesity through subsidizing irrigation water for alfalfa and massive subsidies for corn for beef feed. But unlike almonds, alfalfa is a row crop and can easily get trimmed back during dry years.
And I don't have any problem, in principle, with pasture watering. I'm more than happy to subsidize open range preservation, especially of foothill and coastal range grasslands. I have no difficulty mounting strong historical and environmental arguments in defense of pasturage in many places in the state.
I also don't have any problem, in principle, with subsidizing, even directly, small family farms and ranches. Frankly, there's no other choice. If farming were actually subjected to the free market, it would disappear, and we'd all starve. The problem is that we are currently directly incentivizing black-market profiteering and rent-seeking of the kind that is dramatically increasing the public debt and putting state infrastructure at risk.
Meanwhile, the nightly news tells you to quit flushing yr toilet.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Barker Dam had water in it on my last visit to Jtree. Your welcome LA.
Don't know what the water level in Barker dam has to do with LA.
Barker dam has periodically gone dry and refilled several times in the last forty years.
It's now permanently dry because about five years ago the dam developed a leak.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Meanwhile, the nightly news tells you to quit flushing yr toilet. I woke up at 4 a.m. this morning with this thought in mind. When I was little during the 70s, they'd tell to put a brick in the toilet, which is almost laughable.
Some thoughts:
I had posted a while up about water use for alfalfa, which is just ludicrous. I had a buddy from college who lived in El Centro, which is pretty much the desert east of San Diego. He said if he ever dropped out of school (he did sadly), that the only thing to do there would be to make alfalfa cubes. From that time onward, I never understood the purpose of growing out there, especially such a water intensive crop.
On a drive back from Vegas a couple of weeks ago, I heard a news story about that city's water use. While the fountains and pools on the Strip seem an excessive use of water, it only accounts for 3% of the city's water use, though 75% of its revenue. 70% of the city's water use goes to suburban lawns.
In LA they've started a program where they pay homeowners $2 a square foot to replace their lawns with a water wise alternative. While that's attractive, most are not going to want to go through the hassle and cost of replacing a lawn, especially since the rebate would not completely cover your costs.
Frankly, if the drought continues as it has, I see politics playing almost no significant role in reducing use. Just too much money and too many interests at stake. Until the State summons the will to appoint a water czar or some similar post with the authority to mandate limits and fine for overuse, everyone will just be arguing about what to do until there's very little left. People may not like dead lawns, but they'd prefer that to being told the have limited allotments for bathing, drinking, etc.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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February is looking so much better....Lassen Park, 6,700ft.
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John M
climber
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It won't be enough to end the drought, but I'm sure happy about this current storm. Poor Badger Pass though. It looks like the snow levels are really going to rise. Over 8000 feet tonight. I hope that they are wrong about that
Let it snow at Badger…
Badger Pass Webcam
http://www.yosemitepark.com/badger-webcam.aspx
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Moosie
Looks like the workers are getting it ready to... open tomorrow!!!!..cool.
Great News! We now have enough snow to open Badger Pass Yosemite Ski Area for the winter season starting tomorrow, Saturday February 8th! All downhill runs will be open with the Eagle, Bruin and Badger chair lifts. Badger Pass rentals, dining, sports shop and Ski School will all be available for a fun day of skiing in Yosemite. Grab your skis, board, boots and come on up to Badger Pass! More info here: http://bit.ly/eosWe2
Pretty cool especially since it looked like this on~ Jan 6th
Jan 30th..
dumping rain all day here in C-Town...
Hi Moosie, good to hear from you..(-;....Is Karl in India?
Fatdad, Durning the 70's drought, no showers were allowed at my parents house, only baths. The bath water was bailed and used for the garden veggies and flowers.
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