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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
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I am not saying that Richard and Mark are criminals or whatever.
Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha...good one.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
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It was seen as a siege because of the time on the route. Now you can argue (and it's much easier thirty years or whatever on), that Mark and Richard were correct in pressing that boundary and that the locals were incorrect. But that battle was part of the reason for the controversy.
I am not saying that Richard and Mark are criminals or whatever. And I'm not commenting on the relative difficulty or the religious practice or whether the time spent was appropriate for the toughness of the climbing. I don't have a dog in this fight. But yeah, in the early 1980s, WoS was pushing the borders of what constituted "walking up and climbing in an alpine, capsule or single-push style."
How long did the first ascent of the Nose take?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
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klk's post speaks volumes.
and while we can argue about what the "unwritten rules" of this game called rockclimbing are, there is no denying that they exist.
i believe what exacerbated the WOS story is just how many big wall how to books and magazine articles (after the fact) called it a travesty when none of those that wrote that stuff had the balls to go climb the route. climbing is afterall a game of action and anyone of us can write and spew BS but when push come to shove what really matters is the action, not the BS.
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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But yeah, in the early 1980s, WoS was pushing the borders of what constituted "walking up and climbing in an alpine, capsule or single-push style."
But mostly, it pushed the borders of not bowing down to the self appointed valley gods and basically telling them to go f#*k themselves.
When the route was clandestinely chopped at night they were left with two choices: quit or a vertical camping trip.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
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...they were left with two choices: quit or...
And the bottom line is they were no less tenacious, galling, or determined than anyone else who has ever done an FA in the Valley.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
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How long did the first ascent of the Nose take?
A good example.
The FA of the Nose represented a major achievement in mountaineering, not just in rockclimbing. El Cap was still a major and unknown alpine objective. Up high, even retreat-- let alone rescue --was uncertain. The FA was led by one of the most visible, well-known and respected climbers in California. It was probably only the heavy lobbying in support of climbing done by the Sierra Club in previous years, that made is possible for them to even try the thing.
Even then, the NPS contemplated forbidding the climb itself.
The story illustrates my points pretty nicely.
WOS happened in what we now know to be a transitional moment for Yosemite. Climbing had been established as an acceptable and historically valid activity. Rescues from El Cap had become commonplace. Ascents were regular and frequent. Social custom and self-regulation had replaced the tests and lobbying of the Sierra Club. The siege style of the FA of The Nose was regarded as an antiquity no longer appropriate to Yosemite climbing and possibly soon to be discarded even in the Himalaya.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
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Even more tenacious, to stay up there that long.
Yup, Warren Harding had indeed paid his dues in Yosemite, and was well known. How could Mark Smith and Richard Jensen - Big Wall Parvenus - DARE to put up a route on El Capitan?
"i believe what exacerbated the WOS story is just how many big wall how to books and magazine articles (after the fact) called it a travesty when none of those that wrote that stuff had the balls to go climb the route. climbing is afterall a game of action and anyone of us can write and spew BS but when push come to shove what really matters is the action, not the BS."
^^ Concur.
Something none of us has seen yet here is the textbook that has a chapter on ethics, and the writer of the chapter describes the first ascensionists of Wings of Steel, who I believe were not named, essentially being run out of town on a rail. These few sentences in that book, more than ANYTHING ELSE, were what influenced my incorrect thinking about Wings of Steel up until 2005.
I believe the book I'm thinking of is by Strassman. There are excellent carton drawings in it, and I believe a chapter by Randy Leavitt on aggressive bounce testing. Maybe John Long was involved and knows which book I mean?
It would be awesome if someone could find a copy, and scan up the relevant chapter, as well as the author of the chapter. I know I have a copy "somewhere", but well, you know... anonymous carboard box #56 of 500 in the garage, basement or attic. Sheesh.
Cheers,
Pete
BWP
[Hi Conrad!]
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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Thanks, Atch.
Here is the book we seek. Or at least I *think* it's the book we seek! Anyone got it? Got a digi cam or a scanner?
On sale used starting at thirty-three cents!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
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Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha...good one.
Joe, I have actually avoided posting in this thread up til now, for the same reason that if I passed a spot where people were smearing each other with sh#t, I'd just keep walking.
But I am amazed that hundreds to thousands of posts on various threads later, the conversation still runs like this:
Wings of Steel generated controversy because either
A. Mark and RIchard were as#@&%es; or
B. Valley climbers were as#@&%es.
I don't believe that either of those is a good explanation of why this route generated so much controversy. Asshattery certainly made the controversy uglier. But no, I don't believe that was the only thing that mattered.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
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Thanks, Mr. Kingsbury!
That is *precisely* the quote that so affected me over the years! Those single lines absolutely solidified in my mind, along with the "Note: This route contains many rivets" in the Reid guidebook, that WoS was a PoS.
Who is the author or those words, please?
I believe that the words written above are amongst the most defaming ever written concerning Mark and Richard.
Thanks very much!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
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yes thats the book....says on the amazon site that SG wrote the chapter. the same guy who said he was going to do the 2nd then didnt. talk is cheap. had all of this crap about the WoS FA party been just verbal thats one thing....but writing it up in a Big Wall How To book without ever having set foot on the route was lame IMHO. this also contributed highly to the lingering bashing of the WoS FA party.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
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What is the name of the author of the chapter, Hawkeye?
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
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It always makes someone look like an ass when they purport to speak on behalf of "the climbing community".
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
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Actually, that might be only part of the statement that is true. You sure can't argue that the climbing community didn't retaliate. However rest is nonsense.
But man, I sure believed it. Unbelievable, but true.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
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Pete, you haven't been paing attention. A number of climbers have posted saying they were there , but didn;t condone or get involved in this bs. Seems like a small vocal majority of VC's.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
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pete,
About the Author
Jim Bridwell is called Mr. Big Wall. His climbing experiences stem back two decades. Specializing in speed climbing, Jim was the first climber to ascend El Capitan in on day. Steve Grossman is and experienced climber whose concern for the environment causes him to take the concept of clean climbing to the extreme. Steve writes about putting up first ascents and climbing ethics, two concepts that go hand in hand. Randy Leavitt has produced some of the toughest pitches ever climbed on El Capitan. A bold climber, Randy's main concern is safety as you will notice in his chapter on Tricky Placements. John Middendorf has ascended El Capitan over 20 times. As President of the climbing equipment company, A5 Adventures, John and A5 have helped many beginning big wall climbers reach new heights. Steve Schnieder sets the pace when it comes to speed climbing. Along with a partner, Steve climbed two routes on El Capitan in one day. Steve's chapters give techniques for climbing fast, how to achieve a one-day ascent, and rope soloing. Mike Strassman is chief editor to this book. He has written two other ICS titles to include The Basic Essentials of Rock Climbing and The Basic Essentials of Mountain Biking. Mike has experience climbing various terrains, everything from Zion Canyon and The Equinox to The Washington Column.
this from the amazon site....i think back on that old thread Steve indicates that the editor added some stuff to the offending section as well...
on a side note i thought Schneiders chapter on speed was way cool and the first real info of its kind BITD...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
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So the words above then, concerning Wings of Steel, are from the chapter Steve Grossman wrote. But it could have been edited as well.
Hmmm. It would be interesting to know from Steve if he recalls those to be his exact words, or if they were changed by the editor?
Yes, Atch - it wasn't everyone who was against Mark and Richard. But my research indicates it was a substantial number of the big names from back in the day. And there were enough of them to physically threaten the two parvenus.
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