Wings of Steel

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caughtinside

Social climber

Davis, CA

Jul 22, 2011 - 12:49pm PT

Yeah, you got there first. So other people get to wade through your odious BS.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 22, 2011 - 12:56pm PT

So other people get to wade through your odious BS

Thankfully not; it wasn't our deal and by and large there were no "other people".

atchafalaya

Boulder climber

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:06pm PT

Ron, come on up to Donner and bolt something. Noone gives a sh#t, unless its a piece of sh#t, then it will be removed. Or not. Enjoy!

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:18pm PT

This is factually incorrect. After fixing two pitches, Mark and Richard climbed Wings of Steel in a single continuous push.

It was seen as a siege because of the time on the route. Now you can argue (and it's much easier thirty years or whatever on), that Mark and Richard were correct in pressing that boundary and that the locals were incorrect. But that battle was part of the reason for the controversy.

I am not saying that Richard and Mark are criminals or whatever. And I'm not commenting on the relative difficulty or the religious practice or whether the time spent was appropriate for the toughness of the climbing. I don't have a dog in this fight. But yeah, in the early 1980s, WoS was pushing the borders of what constituted "walking up and climbing in an alpine, capsule or single-push style."

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:25pm PT

Thank god I learned to climb at an unknown, backwater crag without an existing social scene, class structure, or perceptual limits imposed by other climbers. Christ, what odious bullshit to have to wade through on the way to the rock.

One of the reasons that you got to imagine yourself a libertarian was that you won the historical lottery: In the National Parks, your generation had the opportunity precisely because the Clubs-- with their class structure, belay tests, and formal and informal social practices for establishing hierarchies of competence --had done the hard work of negotiating with the NPS and other land managers to establish climbing as an acceptable practice in places like Yosemite and Rainier. The NPS wanted to ban climbing in Yosemite-- it was only the lobbying of the SIerra Club-- and its highly visible practices of self-regulation --that helped to ensure that folks like you or Mark and Richard could just "walk up" and do what came naturally.

So far as the odious bullsh#t, CI is right: At your crags you came first, so now you and yr broheims have set the local customs and expectations. We know yr opinion of folks who'd walk up to yr favorite spot and put in a sport route.

And climbing is just one of the many places (like the entire frickin world), where reputation matters. Sports, white collar professions, the construction site-- I've never worked, played or competed in any arena, anywhere in the world, in which folks with established reps didn't get treated differently and where being an "outsider" wasn't difficult. You're a stranger, you know the bar is going to be higher.

Again, it doesn't excuse the sort of abuse that Mark and Richard had to endure.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:25pm PT

I am not saying that Richard and Mark are criminals or whatever.

Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha...good one.

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:27pm PT

How long did the first ascent of the Nose take?

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:29pm PT

klk's post speaks volumes.

and while we can argue about what the "unwritten rules" of this game called rockclimbing are, there is no denying that they exist.

i believe what exacerbated the WOS story is just how many big wall how to books and magazine articles (after the fact) called it a travesty when none of those that wrote that stuff had the balls to go climb the route. climbing is afterall a game of action and anyone of us can write and spew BS but when push come to shove what really matters is the action, not the BS.

Bubba Ho-Tep

climber

Evergreen, CO

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:33pm PT

But yeah, in the early 1980s, WoS was pushing the borders of what constituted "walking up and climbing in an alpine, capsule or single-push style."

But mostly, it pushed the borders of not bowing down to the self appointed valley gods and basically telling them to go f#*k themselves.

When the route was clandestinely chopped at night they were left with two choices: quit or a vertical camping trip.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:38pm PT

...they were left with two choices: quit or...

And the bottom line is they were no less tenacious, galling, or determined than anyone else who has ever done an FA in the Valley.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:49pm PT

How long did the first ascent of the Nose take?

A good example.

The FA of the Nose represented a major achievement in mountaineering, not just in rockclimbing. El Cap was still a major and unknown alpine objective. Up high, even retreat-- let alone rescue --was uncertain. The FA was led by one of the most visible, well-known and respected climbers in California. It was probably only the heavy lobbying in support of climbing done by the Sierra Club in previous years, that made is possible for them to even try the thing.

Even then, the NPS contemplated forbidding the climb itself.

The story illustrates my points pretty nicely.

WOS happened in what we now know to be a transitional moment for Yosemite. Climbing had been established as an acceptable and historically valid activity. Rescues from El Cap had become commonplace. Ascents were regular and frequent. Social custom and self-regulation had replaced the tests and lobbying of the Sierra Club. The siege style of the FA of The Nose was regarded as an antiquity no longer appropriate to Yosemite climbing and possibly soon to be discarded even in the Himalaya.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:50pm PT

Even more tenacious, to stay up there that long.

Yup, Warren Harding had indeed paid his dues in Yosemite, and was well known. How could Mark Smith and Richard Jensen - Big Wall Parvenus - DARE to put up a route on El Capitan?

"i believe what exacerbated the WOS story is just how many big wall how to books and magazine articles (after the fact) called it a travesty when none of those that wrote that stuff had the balls to go climb the route. climbing is afterall a game of action and anyone of us can write and spew BS but when push come to shove what really matters is the action, not the BS."

^^ Concur.

Something none of us has seen yet here is the textbook that has a chapter on ethics, and the writer of the chapter describes the first ascensionists of Wings of Steel, who I believe were not named, essentially being run out of town on a rail. These few sentences in that book, more than ANYTHING ELSE, were what influenced my incorrect thinking about Wings of Steel up until 2005.

I believe the book I'm thinking of is by Strassman. There are excellent carton drawings in it, and I believe a chapter by Randy Leavitt on aggressive bounce testing. Maybe John Long was involved and knows which book I mean?

It would be awesome if someone could find a copy, and scan up the relevant chapter, as well as the author of the chapter. I know I have a copy "somewhere", but well, you know... anonymous carboard box #56 of 500 in the garage, basement or attic. Sheesh.

Cheers,
Pete
BWP
[Hi Conrad!]

atchafalaya

Boulder climber

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:53pm PT

http://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Big-Walls-Outdoor-sports/dp/0934802599

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:57pm PT

Thanks, Atch.

Here is the book we seek. Or at least I *think* it's the book we seek! Anyone got it? Got a digi cam or a scanner?

On sale used starting at thirty-three cents!

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:58pm PT

Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha...good one.

Joe, I have actually avoided posting in this thread up til now, for the same reason that if I passed a spot where people were smearing each other with sh#t, I'd just keep walking.

But I am amazed that hundreds to thousands of posts on various threads later, the conversation still runs like this:

Wings of Steel generated controversy because either

A. Mark and RIchard were as#@&%es; or
B. Valley climbers were as#@&%es.

I don't believe that either of those is a good explanation of why this route generated so much controversy. Asshattery certainly made the controversy uglier. But no, I don't believe that was the only thing that mattered.

TKingsbury

Trad climber

Jul 22, 2011 - 01:58pm PT

it's been posted before...

from:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=516588&msg=517053#msg517053

EDIT: Pete, read the referenced post as well....

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jul 22, 2011 - 02:00pm PT

Thanks, Mr. Kingsbury!

That is *precisely* the quote that so affected me over the years! Those single lines absolutely solidified in my mind, along with the "Note: This route contains many rivets" in the Reid guidebook, that WoS was a PoS.

Who is the author or those words, please?

I believe that the words written above are amongst the most defaming ever written concerning Mark and Richard.

Thanks very much!

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jul 22, 2011 - 02:01pm PT

yes thats the book....says on the amazon site that SG wrote the chapter. the same guy who said he was going to do the 2nd then didnt. talk is cheap. had all of this crap about the WoS FA party been just verbal thats one thing....but writing it up in a Big Wall How To book without ever having set foot on the route was lame IMHO. this also contributed highly to the lingering bashing of the WoS FA party.