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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 22, 2015 - 05:52pm PT
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^Or the feds. You may not have heard about Obama_wawa ... morphing into Clinton_wawa_care.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jun 22, 2015 - 06:27pm PT
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"The cost of Co River water is listed on your table: $582 AF "
That figure is what MWD charges after adding all fees for delivery, transport, treatment, pensions, tunnels, reservoirs, etc.
The actual cost charged to MWD by the federal USBR (Lake Mead/Parker Dam) is approx. zero.
"Currently, the biggest lift of water in the world is the water from Sacramento to SoCal, about 1900 feet. Costs about $500/ AF."
That's not what I calculate. Can you find an error below?
Giant water pumps are 90% efficient.
"Typically, the round-trip energy efficiency of PSH varies in practice between 70% and 80%,[1][2][3][4] with some claiming up to 87%."[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity
Round trip includes both pumping loss one way, and turbine loss the other way.
Energy = MHD m= mass, H=height, g= gravity
1 AF = 325851 gal = 1233.4 cu. meter. Water is 1g/cc or 1000 kg/m3,
so 1 AF is 1233.4 m3 x 1000 kg/m3 = 1.233 E6 kg
1900 feet = 579m
1 joule = (1 J = 1 N·m = 1 kg·m2 / s2 )
So Energy per AF is 1.233 E6 kg x 579 m x 9.8 m/s2
= 7 E9 joules
Electricity at $20 per megawatt hour is $.00555 per mega Joule
Cost = 7 E9 j x $.00555 /1000000
= $39 per AF.
Adding the 11% inefficiency raises it to $43 per AF.
For a pipeline twice as long that went over two 3800 foot passes, the power cost would be 4 times as much, or $173 per AF.
I think I have heard that the LA aqueduct is a net generator of power, since it's mostly downhill. The California aqueduct is uphill. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Aqueduct
http://www.water.ca.gov/swp/swptoday.cfm
lots of historic pics of LA aqueduct
http://waterandpower.org/museum/Electricity%20on%20the%20Aqueduct.html
http://www.kcet.org/news/redefine/revisit/commentary/concrete-and-chaparral/a-self-guided-tour-of-the-los-angeles-aqueduct.html
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 22, 2015 - 06:51pm PT
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As of last fall MWD was charging member agencies between $1,300 and $1,500 per AF.
A whole lot simpler method of calculating
P = Power, hp
Q = Flow Rate, gpm
S = Specific Gravity of fluid
H = Head height, ft
u = Efficiency coefficient
Efficiency wire to water, combined motor and pump efficiencies is usually somewhere between 82 and 87% Then most of the time a pump is going to be runing a bit off of its BEP (best efficiency point)
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 22, 2015 - 07:22pm PT
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"The cost of Co River water is listed on your table: $582 AF "
That figure is what MWD charges after adding all fees for delivery, transport, treatment, pensions, tunnels, reservoirs, etc.
The actual cost charged to MWD by the federal USBR (Lake Mead/Parker Dam) is approx. zero.
That is the cost for untreated water. Treated costs about $900 AF (although I don't remember the actual price)
However, I will grant that the price of the water itself is virtually nothing. However, that is the price 300 miles away. If you don't like MWD's price, feel free to put in your own pipes, or truck it.
I imagine that you can't really beat their price for delivery, transport, treatment, pensions, tunnels, reservoirs, etc.
"Currently, the biggest lift of water in the world is the water from Sacramento to SoCal, about 1900 feet. Costs about $500/ AF."
That's not what I calculate. Can you find an error below?
Giant water pumps are 90% efficient.
yes, you have to figure in the cost of building it, the cost of financing, then the cost of pensions, work comp, salaries of people running the pumps and pipes, and as you say-- etc.
I'm taking the rate directly from the MWD chart above. I rounded to $500, but it was listed as $420 (Wheeling rate)
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 22, 2015 - 07:44pm PT
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Treatment costs about $900 AF
That's crazy!
Not anywhere close to that, although given MWD accounting practices I'm sure they can justify it. They just took the EPA average national average for a composite of much smaller districts and published it.
OCSD's surcharge for the AWT is a bit more than $1, 000 per MGD. ($3,000 AF) That's to run an advanced microfiltration and RO waste to better than drinking water quality process.
The MWD plants have to be an order of magnitude cheaper to run than the nationwide average, just based on economy of scale. They have converted all of them to zone for primary disinfection in the last few years with a huge capital outlay that I'm sure they are recovering at an accelerated pace.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 22, 2015 - 08:05pm PT
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The MWD plants have to be an order of magnitude cheaper to run than the nationwide average, just based on economy of scale. They have converted all of them to zone for primary disinfection in the last few years with a huge capital outlay that I'm sure they are recovering at an accelerated pace.
Actually, I wouldn't think so. Nationwide, they don't have to pump their water thousands of feet over mountain ranges.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 23, 2015 - 07:08am PT
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Meanwhile up in Oregon, Nestle's (huge Euro corp.) is trying to buy the best and most reliable water source in the state, and for some reason the politicians are signing off on it, even though citizens are fighting it like crazy. Can you say "corruption and graft"? Sure, I knew you could..
Looks like it's going to happen. What a lunatic fringe thing to do.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 24, 2015 - 01:12pm PT
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Found a couple year old water bill for one month. Never looked at it in detail before.
$18.37 CV City Sewer Charge (34.5%)
$14.01 SD CWA Infrastructure Access (26.3%)
$6.32 Water charge (2992 gallons) (11.9%) .00211/gal
$14.48 Water System Fee (27.2%)
$53.28 Total
This would be all tier one usage. I can't remember how the tiers are structured.
325,851 gallons/acre foot
Appears to be a water cost to the comsumer of $688/acre foot
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son of stan
Boulder climber
San Jose CA
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Jun 24, 2015 - 04:15pm PT
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Surrounding the politicians homes and shouting angrily has
been known to get their attention.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 24, 2015 - 04:35pm PT
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Actually, I wouldn't think so. Nationwide, they don't have to pump their water thousands of feet over mountain ranges.
The $900 is treatment, not pumping costs. That's way off.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I'm curious TGT, given your business, what you think of the viability of such a long water delivery system as suggested by stealing water from the Great Lakes, for example. Not just cost, but well, the whole idea...
Thanks!
DMT
If we were willing to build about a dozen or so nuke plants to run the pumps it could be done.
A whole industrial infrastructure would have to be rebuilt to do it. I don't think any pipe mills, foundries etc. even exist anymore outside of China that could produce the infrastructure. Right now almost all large castings for machinery come from either China or Brazil. Even if the end product is assembled here almost all of the components are outsourced.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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The $900 is treatment, not pumping costs. That's way off.
I'm not sure where you get that. As I read the reports, that is the cost of the treated water by MWD delivered to a city's connecting pipes.
I know that LADWP does not buy treated water, it does the treatment itself, as it is large enough to support the infrastructure.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Jul 12, 2015 - 02:41pm PT
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Studly, Nestle is the epitome of a rotten and greedy corporation. They make Monsanto look as Mother Theresa. They kill babies. Second time recently. First time was in the sixties - the Nestle-babies. Just another one of the scandals concerning them throughout history.
Don't let them buy your water.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 12, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
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What never appears in these articles is that the primary reason for aging recycled water in an aquifer is that it is so pure that it would dissolve your teeth and bones if you drank it on a regular basis. Pure water with no mineral content isn't good for you!
The water coming out of a AWT facility is deionized water. It is so pure that you have to use stainless steel piping and fittings so that they aren't eaten up by the ultra pure water.
Seawater desalination systems produce the same level of purity and the same piping requirements. You either have to have a lime system to add calcium or age the DI water underground in an aquifer where the pH will balance by dissolving local minerals to make the water safe for regular consumption.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 12, 2015 - 05:44pm PT
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No myth!
Passivated 316 stainless steel or plastic is the specified piping system for DI water because you'll eat up carbon steel or cement lined piping in short order.
I guess they spent a few million on the calcining towers at Carlsbad, (and every other seawater RO plant) just for shits and giggles.
It's all about the pH.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 12, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
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Check with Cal DHS and see if they will allow DI water for regular human consumption and get back to us.
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