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TFSTFU
Trad climber
Utah
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Dec 10, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
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Funny listenin to a bunch of republic of California's talk bout guns. Pussified yuppies.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Dec 10, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
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So you are ok with the idea that to operate an automobile, which is a utilitarian device, you need to be tested, licensed and insured, but that you need no qualifications whatsoever to own semi-automatic weapons?
Weapons that have no real purpose but to kill other people? And operated by the same bunch of yahoos that cannot operate motor vehicles without constantly having accidents? Same bunch that constantly have accidents with their weapons, usually with very tragic consequences?
And the fantasy that crimes are constantly deterred by the mere presence of a weapon is just that, pure fantasy. Costas hit the nail right on the head when he pointed out the the presence of a gun more often than not escalates the situation from shouts or fisticuffs to gunplay.
Facts bear this out. In the Western US, where guns are more common you're more likely to be shot than you are back East where the laws are much stricter. Also factual, you are most likely to shoot yourself, a family member or a friend, in that order.
Those are facts, not fantasy. Also fantasy is the idea that you're going to overthrow the government with your guns. We change our government through the ballot box, not with bullets.
And the right wing GOP'rs that gun nuts predominately vote for presided over the greatest loss of our constitutional rights by hammering through the ill-named "Patriot Act". Wanna fight for your constitutional rights? Get on the phone and start calling your elected representatives and hammer them to repeal this sham act. A gun won't help us accomplish this but your telephone and the US mail will. Fact, not fantasy.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Dec 10, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
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Facts huh? I haven't seen any "facts" to support your opinions.
Here's some "FACTS".
Somewhere around 30,000 people die from guns every year in the U.S.
More than half are suicides.
500,000 die from cigarettes.
You're 20X more likely to die from Medical Errors.
10X from Accidental injuries.
10X more from Alcohol.
3X more from car accidents.
3X more from poisoning.
2X more from drug abuse.
2X more from unintentional falls.
And the number one weapon in the U.S. for murders,... A Baseball bat!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 10, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
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Costas hit the nail right on the head when he pointed out the the presence of a gun more often than not escalates the situation from shouts or fisticuffs to gunplay.
"More often than not."
Really?
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Dec 11, 2012 - 03:47am PT
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Really. No gun, no gunplay.
You've also overlooked one of the extremely likely consequences of pulling a gun on someone, going to prison. Again, fact.
Alaska, Wyoming, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico all in the top 10 gun deaths per 100,000 people. The rest are Southern states with heavy gun culture. The only anomaly is The District of Columbia, it sits at the top because of drug related crime. More guns, more gun deaths. Fact, not fantasy.
Also, "In 2010 - the latest year for which detailed statistics are available - there were 12,996 murders in the US. Of those, 8,775 were caused by firearms." This puts the lie to the baseball bat comment. Fact, not fantasy.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Dec 11, 2012 - 07:47am PT
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Nick, your logic isn't. No cars, no auto deaths. Why do I need to repeat simple, very simple things to you?
Burly Bob
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 11, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Temecula huh?
I used to stop off there to buy Bianchi holsters.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 11, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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Nick I even highlighted the bogus part of the quote: "More often than not..."
The only anomaly is The District of Columbia,
Yeah, and your "anomaly" has consistently for a long time had the strictest gun control in the U.S.
Your assumption that if a gun is present it will be pulled and used is silly. If that were the case there would be millions of people being shot every day. According to Gunpolicy.org there are 270 million guns in civilian hands in the US, 88.9 guns per 100 people. I suspect that you are in the presence of guns a lot more often than you are aware.
Your statement that if I pull a gun on someone I go to jail is also false. If that person is a mortal threat I have the right to act in self defense. There are serious rules governing this type of action, as there should be (for example shooting someone who threatened you but runs when they see you are armed is not self defense,) but we do still have the right to defend ourselves.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 11, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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You just think you don't.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 11, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
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I'm on year 20 or so of carrying more or less every day..... I've never had to shoot anyone in a civilian situation nor have I had to threaten anyone. And that includes a robbery in a retail store where nobody was injured. I'm not superman nor am I expected, as a civilian, to protect anyone or anything. It's my choice. The laws are pretty clear.
Most level-headed people tend to behave that way if they're carrying a gun or not. I have educated many, many people in proper firearm handling. Over that time I've had only one guy who I would not teach, simply because he wouldn't... or couldn't... pay attention to simple tasks.
It's a shame the "gun nuts" get lumped into tidy bundles. I guess it's the same as "religious nuts", "liberals", "conservatives", "blacks", "whites", ... etc..
The need for such generalizations must be a throwback to our tribal roots.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 11, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
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Costas hit the nail right on the head when he pointed out the the presence of a gun more often than not escalates the situation from shouts or fisticuffs to gunplay.
If you're concealing and some thug comes from around a corner and socks you in the side of the jaw and starts kicking you and asking for your wallet, you're not gonna ask for a fair fight. You're gonna draw and shoot him as many times as you can from point blank range til he stops.
If you're concealing and some thug comes from around a corner and has a gun and says "give me your wallet", you're most likely going to just give your wallet. If he turns and runs, you better have a good description of him.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
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Two dead, crazy speculated to be in body armor still on the loose as of a few minutes ago. Jeez, maybe what would help would be even more guns in the mall.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 11, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
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CNN is saying a gunman "neutralized".
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 11, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
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He's been "Neutralized" in the latest report.
Unless you're wearing full body armor, including helmet, most people who practice a few times a month with their conceal carry weapon, can shoot an apple at about 25 yards. Aim for the head. That was the problem with the 1997 North Hollywood Shootout.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 11, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
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Given the discussion just above, it's interesting the gunman used a rifle.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 11, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
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After Colorado a lawyer friend asked me how many people a madman can carry ammo to kill.
Wait till someone goes postal with a 5.7 x 28mm bullpup.
You can easily carry 2K rds.
Climbers are used to dealing with potential lethality, but most people are repelled by it.
Still, nobody gets out alive and the world is a dangerous place.
If you don't want guns within 100' of you then keep your distance!
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jstan
climber
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Dec 11, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
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Wait till someone goes postal with a 5.7 x 28mm bullpup.
You can easily carry 2K rds.
Climbers are used to dealing with potential lethality, but most people are repelled by it.
Still, nobody gets out alive and the world is a dangerous place.
If you don't want guns within 100' of you then keep your distance!
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 11, 2012 - 08:31pm PT
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Given the discussion just above, it's interesting the gunman used a rifle.
Why not? They're scarier. More accurate. Easier to handle groupings. Higher capacity. Higher kill rate. Way more effective than handguns.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 11, 2012 - 09:23pm PT
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Back to the District of Columbia, it's interesting to note that after the Supreme Court nullified the "no handguns" law there, violent crime dropped significantly while property crimes rose by about the same amount.
Koz I was by no means implying that nearly everyone has a gun, just how many are out there in civilian hands. My wife and I for example have six, 3 long, 2 short that work, 1 short that is an antique.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 11, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
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That antique works pretty good for fixing Rabbits.
VW's that is.
;-)
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