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apogee
climber
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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dirt claud, let me put it another way:
YOU LIE!
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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Keep living your lives of ignorant bliss and stop talking to us about examples in history that have no relevance to the subject we don't just read history, we study it and learn from it.
Speaking of ignorant bliss. History is rife with examples of leaders using tragedies as an excuse to misdirect the populace into going along with an agenda/war that had nothing to do with the original tragedy.
9/11 was a tragedy. The invasion of Iraq was a travesty.
We obviously don't learn, because we let those sacks of sh!t take a tragedy and use it, in our names, for their own selfish purposes, to commit violence against the innocent, which many continue to be blind to because, hey, we MUST be God's chosen people, and so we just couldn't eeeever do anything wrong and even if we did (which we didn't) they must've had it coming because, hey, we're God's chosen people and they're not.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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There is no vicarious liability under US law the last I checked, so with
the president you seem correct. Joint ventures, however can attach
liability to an entire US dept. or component.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
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However,
it appears the US violated their own military laws and are currently
doing so now as reported by the news, due to the statutory time
frame allowed for war.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Sep 11, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double edge sword. It both emoboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what i have done. and I am Caesar."
Has history repeated itself?
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Sep 11, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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I was about 1/2 mile from the pentagon when it was hit ... I was working in news as well and feared the worst minutes after the towers were hit only to have my fears justified... HOWEVER to anyone who thinks we didnt bring this on ourselves by training them all in the dark arts of guerrilla war in the name of cold war with the USSR (Afghanistan) is only BELIEVING FALLACIES AND HALF TRUTHS IN THE NAME OF POLITICAL ALIGNMENT. To anyone supporting Bush's response or any of the preliminaries leading up to it I say 'FOR SHAME'. 9-11 is more our fault than anyone would like to admit.
In Afghan. they fire M-16's (as the majority) as well as a paultry number of AK's at us. Where did they come from????
I have nothing against repubs but those who sympathize with the CIA operative driven legacy of 2 generations of Bush's... You can all kiss my ass.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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I have a lot of sympathy for Juan's opening post.
While the politics are quite diverse, really they should all have been posted in some other thread.
It is a descent and even important thought to memorialize those who did die as a result of the actions on 9/11/01. Many of them died in heroic acts of selflessness trying to help others.
Many left families and friends now bereft of husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters.
Whatever you make of the cause and reasons, those who died no longer care, it doesn't matter to them, they never knew what became of the nation, the world, afterwards.
But I think we must remember them.
Thanks for you opening post, Juan, it is too bad it didn't go in a positive direction.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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Sep 11, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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History repeats itself
Coiling down into the future
When it's one second to twelve
The hands touch and follow deeper
History repeats itself
I didn't learn, I wouldn't listen
I couldn't see the books were on the shelf
For my good sense, I never missed 'em
Wish I was standing by the shore
Feel the wind blow in my face
See the waves roll in for an encore
They take a bow, they know their place
I do not want, I do not feel
I've turned away in myself
I can't find anything that's real
But history repeats itself
"History Repeats Itself" FROM AOL, soundtrack of "Natural Born Killers"
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Sep 11, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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Ed,
I completely agree and didi not mean to take away from their memory in the least. So many many heroes of the highest degree showed their merit in those fleeting moment and are true patriots and valiant human beings.
However this isn't Juan's first post about this and as much as I believe in your own (personal) care about this I can assure you that he is only trying to rile and incense people to argue with him. It's his MO and as a lurker I have seen it a thousand times over. It is NOT OK. But he doesnt care. I am sorry if I seem to have misrepresented my feelings. But he is a troll of the highest degree.
Anyway, you are right. reverence IS called for and I shall give it.
-
Roman
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Sep 11, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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If that's the case (as I am totally unaware of anything within his personal life) then I digress and apologize. I am only speaking from past experience over the years. I understand that we all do grow in such ways and wish not to condemn him in the way that I did. If he has changed in the way you say then he has grown as a man and citizen (albeit of the internet, I guess) and I respect that.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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As I said before; If you really want to honor the dead and the survivors you would DEMAND THE TRUTH!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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they can be honored and remembered for what they did independent of the cause
the only truth that matters to this thread, in my opinion, is the fact of their deaths
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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Thanks, Ed, for your posts. They're right on target. This thread isn't the one for casting blame. There's another one approaching 10,000 posts that would do just fine for that. Today we simply remember those who -- not being in any way knowing participants in any great game -- lost their lives eight years ago.
John
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
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Would you be including the well over 100,000 souls lost in Iraq and Afghanistan in that solemn remembrance? Or just the ones on US soil? Will you hold the same sacred vigil for the anniversary of the Indian OceanTsunami of 2004? How about the Hurricane Katrina victims? Do stand in silence every anniversary for the dead of Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing. How about the victims of the earthquake that struck the Chinese city of Shaanzi in 1556? It is considered the worst natural disaster of all known history likely to have taken the lives of 830,000 people.
Why they died and what can be learned from it to avoid repeating mistakes is more pertinent than that they died!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 07:07pm PT
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So Lois do you fall silent and stand in solidarity every April 19th?
That is the date in 1995 that American war hero Timothy McVeigh murdered a bunch of innocent American citizens in Oklahoma City. Does that one count too?
Being willingly blind to the truth serves no ones interests but the perpetrators.
Or should I say purposeful traitors? So wave your flag and wring the angst out of your wretched fearful lives all you want. But to not want to know WHY is beyond my grasp.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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Really Lois. McV was a product of our training in much the same way as the Muhajadin and Taliban were/are.
In the long run Lois "the mechanics" as you put it mean little or nothing, dead is dead. What matters is the TRUTH. The WHY of it, and how to not repeat the same mistakes.
Why don't you care for the truth? Are you afraid?
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Sep 12, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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Cragman,
Sure thing, but I don't get why you would want to send me to a communist country.
But, hey, I like to travel.
And you send me your mailing address too, so I can give you a ticket to some countries where no dissent of nationalism and patriotic fervor is allowed.
I'll start by sending you to North Korea and Iran where those "we can do no wrong" and "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitudes you demonstrate are rigidly enforced; you'll fit right in.
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Sep 12, 2009 - 02:02pm PT
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Lois,
You're still Dick & George's little ventriloquist dummy. After eight years of getting fisted up the azz by Dick & George you'd think some sense might get knocked into your wooden head.
Bending over for jihadists???? Oh, yeah, riiight, you really think that's why we opposed going into Iraq? Oh, that's right, you can't think, can you?
(edit)
Jihadist Communist Gulags???????????????????????///
ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Sep 12, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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^ ^ ^
The idiocy in the above posts by Lois and Cragman is breathtaking and strains my ability to parody.
Some wily demagogic rhetoricians use straw man arguments to misdirect and win over an audience of idiots.
They should tell Lois and Cragman, "don't try this at home."
Because when the audience goes on SuperTopo and tries to make their own arguments, it's like they're trying to stab someone with the handle of a knife while holding it by the blade.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Sep 14, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
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Regards:: My above statements with added clarity.
The news(LA Times) reported we have been at war with Afghanistan
for 10 years. The last I checked this would be unlawful by USC, and
the US would be breaching their own war laws.
Nancy Pelosi in USA today over this previous weekend reported aid
needs to be reduced in Afghanistan.
This latter makes more sense as I was not aware of a war in
Afghanistan, however many including myself don't care for
forced help, forced or otherwise volunteer programs without
pay or forced welfare etc. programs.
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