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lars johansen
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 21, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
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"A climber can be short and dumpy and getting bald but if he has fire, women will like him."
Clance?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 21, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
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Wow, that was quick! Turdburner's gone already??
Within minutes of his first post?
Does that mean there are mods around here?? Or does the welcome to the machine automatically recognize a banned person's address and shuts them down auto?
Enquiring minds want to know!!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 21, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
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How can people say this thread is worthless when it produces posts like Rodgers? that was classic. And I love Survivals romanticized version of events and Genes idea. I would pay money to see that event. haha.. Love it.
and wow.. we have a fast turdflusher.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 21, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
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Yeah, good thinking Gene - I'd come down for that show...
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Jul 21, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Jul 21, 2011 - 11:05am PT
After about 30,000 posts on this topic, libelous statements in guidebooks, delusional, spiteful and uninformed ranting over the course of 30 years, all from, except for 5 or 6 folks, people that have never been on this route, it's pretty funny to hear that there suddenly needs to be some sanctity in who writes what.
I think it's pretty obvious people can say whatever they want wherever they want.
Well put sir!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 21, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
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pk_davidson, Nice Lyrics!
As far as writing an article on top rope...
If feel that Pete should stand back, not stand down. He shouldn't be speculating/stealing details of the SA from Ammon and Kait. Let them tell the story of the SA. But THEN I would like to hear what he's found out. He has been researching and probably know things that Ammon and Kait don't and it would be interesting to hear about the history and controversy and I don't know if A&K have the desire to research and write about that.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 21, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
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Mark Hudon said: This has to be the best thread ever! It has a life of its own!
My sentiment exactly.^^^
... and all that crap Rodger b said... I'm jiggy with that too.
Regardless of which side of the slab you stand (or sh#t on)- this whole thing is a classic Yosemite history.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jul 21, 2011 - 09:19pm PT
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good post rodger!
edit
as far as the facelift 3 ring circus goes, only if we can have different segments or presentations separated by 13 or 14 yr old "ring girls" prancing across the stage, all dressed up in their pedophile friendly atire-
say in high heels and daisy dukes, tight tank-tops and over-the-top lipsick.
(wouldn't you agree, eh?)
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 21, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
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I edited in upthread the following. You might find this interesting. I have finished the Wings of Steel book just now.
edit from upthread post:
Absolutely seriously, I DO recommend this book. Although I am about as rabid an atheist as one can be, this book is historic and valuable to our art; it's decently put together, and the language is good enough to stand up well in comparison to other accounts from the field. Richard was phenomenally diligent here and it is also a tale from youth, almost picaresque in its nature albeit an Adventist-tinged one at points. Further, the religious parts of it are short and read almost "pasted in" thankfully and are not too disgusting or implausible. Richard poses himself as "A Quitter" in it early on and a lot of the tale then is his struggle and Mark's struggle to NOT quit as they face week after week the tougher consequences of their inexperienced and youthful dreams in the wondrous and peculiar context of the King Slab, one of El Cap's stranger but gorgeous features. It really is a classic, Pilgrims. It is good enough for Richard to go back and groom the tale again for another edition I think; I do know his writing is quite a bit more developed since those days ---Wings is practically a child-authored piece, you know, and the route climbed by very very young guys---and it will be clear coming up soon that their ascent ended up making sense, after a fashion, and must be counted in with all the other storied, kooky lines we have created on the whole formation.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 21, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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One way or another, I want to read Pete's article regarding the history of Wings of Steel just as much as I want to read Ammon and Kait's account of the SA. As far as I'm concerned, this controversy's been around almost as long as I have, there's room enough for two articles that I see as complementary to each other.
I do agree with the assertion that it would be good for PTPP to stick to what he knows, and not comment on the SA - it seems to me that having solely earned that accomplishment, it's Ammon and Kait's tale to tell, and only they may speak of it authoritatively.
At the same time, and given his legwork into personally investigating the climb (as reported in this thread over the past 5 years), I do believe that PTPP has a great deal of information about Wings of Steel, its history, and its controversy. I would like to see both articles published concurrently.
Also, I second Peter Haan's recommendation of the original book Wings of Steel. I just finished it myself, and it's about 6 hours of casual reading. Much like this thread, it grows on ya.
EDIT: As per Knuckles' later thread suggestion, I heard that Bridwell used questionable climbing ethics and artificially inflated the difficulty rating on all of his major climbs. (Also, that he couldn't climax unless he was choking a prostitute.)
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Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:49am PT
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Playing tonight:
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:36am PT
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Bremsspur.
My German nickname.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2011 - 11:35am PT
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A couple of quick comments. I've stayed out of this. I was in the Valley for part of the time that Mark and Richard were on the wall. I was in C4 when their ropes got cut, but wasn't involved. I didn't know Mark or Richard personally, but had a vague idea of who they were, since I was living near Riverside.
First, the context matters. In the early 1980s, the Valley was just starting to come to grips with the idea that it was a cragging rather than a mountaineering arena. But it was the high point of investment in alpine, capsule style ascents. The American team on Latok was still an example folks talked about. "Sieging," on free climbs or walls, was considered retrograde. We hadn't yet had decades of rap-in, rehearsal of big free routes or Chongo and Pete's transformation of El Cap into a sort of a vertical Caribbean for lowball pleasure cruises. For someone (especially "outsiders'), to walk up and begin sieging a new and unusual route, was a highly aggressive move and was seen as a step backward.
Second, yes, it matters that Mark and Richard were Valley outsiders. No, that doesn't justify cutting ropes or the shitting episode, but it does matter. The idea that every single climber should be treated exactly the same is just not going to fly. It certainly isn't the case here, even online. It's not the case in any professional community with which I am familiar. Folks who are well-known, and vetted by the community, and respected, are more likely to be given a chance to push the envelope and are more likely to get the benefit of the doubt. That's entirely fair. In places like Yosemite (especially in the 1980s) or Chamonix, that custom is going to take some fairly ugly forms at times. In this case, it clearly got out of hand. But the practice is traditional and general and is one of the few things now standing between us and the land managers. In the old days, the Clubs (the SC on the West Coast) mediated between climbers and land managers. But the Clubs are gone. Community consensus, typically led by the most visible and respected "locals," is pretty much all that remains.
Third, the slab climbing was difficult for onlookers to understand and for two reasons. First, simply because it was new and seemed weird-- wall climbing consisted of linking together crack systems and avoiding blank chunks of rock as much as possible, since long blank sections typically meant drilling, and we had all learned that drilling was bad. Second, because Yosemite developed a system of preferences (usually described as "ethics") in which virtually any kind of hammered placement was seen as better than a drilled hole. Decades later, after sport climbing, bolt replacement, and years of abuse of thin seams and cracks, most of us are now a bit more sanguine about bolts. An average bolt hole, in good granite, is a lot easier to fill, repair, and hide than the nasty scars left in a seam by years of stacking, chiseling, or heading. Today, it is a lot tougher to say that whaling removable metal into a flared seam is ecologically superior to a bolt. But that perspective is new-- virtually no one would have shared it back in the early 1980s. Certainly no one I ever heard speak on the topic.
For the record, I really don't care who writes what story.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
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Thanks for your perspective! Great stuff and hugely appreciated.
You write,
"For someone (especially "outsiders'), to walk up and begin sieging a new and unusual route, was a highly aggressive move and was seen as a step backward."
This is factually incorrect. After fixing two pitches, Mark and Richard climbed Wings of Steel in a single continuous push.
I am very curious as to how you got the idea that they "sieged" the route, and that this mistaken idea persists to today. Not a criticism, but merely an observation and a question.
Cheers,
Pete
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:33pm PT
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That's entirely fair. In places like Yosemite (especially in the 1980s) or Chamonix, that custom is going to take some fairly ugly forms at times.
Thank god I learned to climb at an unknown, backwater crag without an existing social scene, class structure, or perceptual limits imposed by other climbers. Christ, what odious bullshit to have to wade through on the way to the rock.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
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Yeah, you got there first. So other people get to wade through your odious BS.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
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So other people get to wade through your odious BS
Thankfully not; it wasn't our deal and by and large there were no "other people".
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:06pm PT
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Ron, come on up to Donner and bolt something. Noone gives a sh#t, unless its a piece of sh#t, then it will be removed. Or not. Enjoy!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
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This is factually incorrect. After fixing two pitches, Mark and Richard climbed Wings of Steel in a single continuous push.
It was seen as a siege because of the time on the route. Now you can argue (and it's much easier thirty years or whatever on), that Mark and Richard were correct in pressing that boundary and that the locals were incorrect. But that battle was part of the reason for the controversy.
I am not saying that Richard and Mark are criminals or whatever. And I'm not commenting on the relative difficulty or the religious practice or whether the time spent was appropriate for the toughness of the climbing. I don't have a dog in this fight. But yeah, in the early 1980s, WoS was pushing the borders of what constituted "walking up and climbing in an alpine, capsule or single-push style."
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
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Thank god I learned to climb at an unknown, backwater crag without an existing social scene, class structure, or perceptual limits imposed by other climbers. Christ, what odious bullshit to have to wade through on the way to the rock.
One of the reasons that you got to imagine yourself a libertarian was that you won the historical lottery: In the National Parks, your generation had the opportunity precisely because the Clubs-- with their class structure, belay tests, and formal and informal social practices for establishing hierarchies of competence --had done the hard work of negotiating with the NPS and other land managers to establish climbing as an acceptable practice in places like Yosemite and Rainier. The NPS wanted to ban climbing in Yosemite-- it was only the lobbying of the SIerra Club-- and its highly visible practices of self-regulation --that helped to ensure that folks like you or Mark and Richard could just "walk up" and do what came naturally.
So far as the odious bullsh#t, CI is right: At your crags you came first, so now you and yr broheims have set the local customs and expectations. We know yr opinion of folks who'd walk up to yr favorite spot and put in a sport route.
And climbing is just one of the many places (like the entire frickin world), where reputation matters. Sports, white collar professions, the construction site-- I've never worked, played or competed in any arena, anywhere in the world, in which folks with established reps didn't get treated differently and where being an "outsider" wasn't difficult. You're a stranger, you know the bar is going to be higher.
Again, it doesn't excuse the sort of abuse that Mark and Richard had to endure.
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