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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Hartouni hears a Who?
Yeah they're laughing, the whole tribal weight of those microbes chortling out loud as they collectively amass their Gazillionth send. Only those new bolts kinda get in the way.
All except the Amoebas, who're kinda punks actually, but so big you gotta show em some respect or get...let's not go there.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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My prediction.
GU sees a second ascent before this thread gets to 10,000 posts.
Hope the TR has pictures.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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gotta admit tho...
ain't everyday ya get up and read about someone going
top-down on half-dome:
still, I just can't see how it diminishes the formation,
sets any kind of a "bad" precedent in terms of resource use
or detracts from the stellar achievements represented
by the other routes on the face, myself.
and yes, I will shut up now.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
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Jenny said "taint"...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Hey, can I borrow that for the name of my new toprope problem on SFHD? The Gazillionth Send Of The Microbes And Amoebas!!
I'd say it's no less a route just because there's no hardware left to mark my path. The new new new future!!!
Raydog, no you won't.
Karl, oh yeah? Well...just...shut up dood!
bwancy1, now THAT is a bitchin' handle. You're right, I had to double check, but she did say "taint"!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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I never was a top class climber. When guys in my age group - like Kevin Worrall, Ron Kauk, John Bachar, Mike Graham, Ed Barry, just to name a few - were out there breaking new ground, such as hard 11s with mentors like Bridwell, I was struggling up hard 10s.
While I climbed with a couple of the ‘Stone Masters’group, I was never one, but use to talk with some of them a lot, usually over a bowl load or joint around a campfire in C4. I sure was surprised to hear about the bust ups in C4 parking lot (and elsewhere) in the early 1980s over “ethics”.
Back to 1975.
So Charlie Porter asks me to second him on Henley Quits on the C4 wall.
He’s up by the crux and starts banging in a bong. This is when clean climbing really had taken off and a bong (pins for that matter, on such a climb) wasn’t necessary, but Charlie always did things his way. (I was wondering why he was racking up with a hammer and pins.)
So heading up to do Cristina (Edit: or maybe something else, I can't totally recall now that I thing about it) were Lew Dawson and Rich Jack, two Colorado climbers that I had climbed with several times.
As they passed by me, I could see that their expression was, “WTF, what’s he doing banging in a bong?”
I sheepishly said hi and sort of look away, somewhat embarrassed.
The moral? At the time it was, shall we say, de rigeur, not to do such climbs with pins. But Charlie was of a different school than what was fashionable. I didn’t agree with him using the bong (he had use chalks - EDIT: duh, chocks - for other pro), but that was his decision.
Sean and Doug made their decision. Who are any of us to be taking such a high on the horse attitude? Perhaps the GU critics may someday use techniques that will find critical discussion.
Some may say that a one-pitch established climb is not the same as a new route up SFHD, and therefore my little tale isn't relevant. But what is ethical and what are ethics? Does it matter the length of a route? The manner climbed, whether the first time of the umpteenth time? Etc, etc, etc.
I don’t know, I sort of feel guilty for adding to this thread (the number of posts that is). Obviously there are enough people with strong enough feelings about GU to make this thread as long as it is, but perhaps it is best to let things rest at the moment, and move on a bit.
This discussion can always be resurrected once a second ascent (or more) of the route is done.
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Festus
Social climber
Enron by the Sea
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Mr. Walling writes:
"Cracko and Jacko really seem to have a handle on this thing.... Festus?"
and
"...even 5.4 leaders from the Gunks are lipping up along with the hardest of the hard from every era. No end in sight."
Dammit, Russ, I'm already in this thing twice (now three times)back in the 900s, and pretty much without a clue because I'd be hard-pressed to lead 5.4 in the Gunks even if I knew where the f#ck the Gunks are. Still, I would absolutely bury my brothers on an approach hike to Incredible Hulk...it's only the actual rock climbing that costs me a couple of spots in the family rankings.
Mariners over D-Backs in seven. You read it here first!
Cubs? Well, deep down inside you already know.
And I only know two things related to the actual thread subject: "Naked talus runner" is f#cking funny, and "A Night on the Ground, a Day in the Open" is a good book.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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The "talus runner" affected my life. Read the article in the GPIW catalog and then started to run on trails into mountains. Thus started a new passion and a series of trail runs and races in the mountains that changed my life.
In my mind-eye I can still see that photo of Doug hopping/runner over talus inspiring me to do something different.
Thanks, Doug!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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That talus was probably pre-inspected Bob.
Ed wrote:
"We are the crown of creation? I'll bet the microbes on the SFHD out weigh us. "
I don't know about the microbes but those tiny red bugs on the granite, I can tell you that they are totally against this route!
;-)
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think the talk of those little red bugs belongs on the Lycra appreciation thread, those milli-dudes are the shizzle...
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Yeah, don't you think for one moment that I would just run it out on talus. Onsight?...gimme a break.
Oops, I said "break"
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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the sad thing about this thread is that it appears to be a justification for all out rapp bolting of big walls in yos.
and because of the cliqueish attitude of some yosemite climbers it looks like it is being accepted. this place reminds me sometimes of being in Jr High again where the "in" crowd gets away with sh&& that others dont.
carrion.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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That's life. always has been, allways will be.......
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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I wonder how the scenario would have played out if the characters involved were different, like Joe and Jane Anonymous ?
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jstan
climber
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The best thing would be for everyone to go watch Eric’s link right about now.
http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/243
After going through 200 posts a couple of comments.
Before considering what our personal opinions may be it is probably well to try and identify what things are actually facts.
1. Legal title to Half Dome rests with the US government and responsibility for
managing it rests with that government. Every citizen therefore possesses a co-
equal interest in that property.
2. Modification of public property by special interests for their own benefit, while
it surely occurs, is subject to management by responsible authority.
3. Rock climbers form just one of the many identifiable groups wishing to enjoy
that property.
4. The group of rock climbers is not numerically superior so the impact that group
may be able to have upon whatever course of action the government determines
is necessary, in all probability - will be limited.
5. In the real world, situations arise wherein individuals and groups have , when
they please, been able to do as they please with public property. That said, it is
also true that as population density rises and competition for shared resources
rises, continued exercise of this position will lead increasingly to public
disorder. We have object data here as regards this.
Now I will state again an opinion I have advanced over the past forty years.
Climbers themselves have a variety of uses they wish to make of property they in fact do not own. If we wish to have maximum impact upon the policies applied to us, it is incumbent upon us to reach our own consensus as to what uses are proposed. Given that we will be able to present cogent proposals to the responsible authorities.
Finally, an opinion I have reached only recently. In the event we are unable or are unwilling to work toward this, I feel the activity has become destructive of the general welfare and needs to be subject to increased regulation. It has taken thirty years, but this is where I now find myself.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jstan wrote:
"Finally, an opinion I have reached only recently. In the event we are unable or are unwilling to work toward this, I feel the activity has become destructive of the general welfare and needs to be subject to increased regulation. It has taken thirty years, but this is where I now find myself. "
Seems sort of dangerous to leave that as a general statement. Would you elaborate where and what activity is destructive and perhaps why? What sorts of regulation would you expect and how would that impact the rest of climbing. We've seen fixed anchor bans and how they affect routes.
Peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Hawkeye,
I'd say this route is far from being actually "accepted" as evidenced by the robust debate here. It's just that there is damn little anyone can do about it except chop it, which I don't see as the answer. What I hope is that we can leave it alone for what it is, and discourage repeat performances on other routes as vigorously as possible.
Earlier I asked Doug and Sean specifically about what they saw as unacceptable for other routes up there. No one actually answered, except I think Doug called it baiting. Maybe I'll just try a new question. To all who are in defense of this route: Would you "like" to see 6 or 8 more rap bolted routes back there? Would that be a good thing?
jstan, please tell me that we are not going to see a governing body with another stack of do's and not do's. Gawd, don't we have enough places in this life where we have to follow "the law"? Climbing is one of the few places where I feel pretty free. If the man tells me what the appropriate distance for pro is in such and such type of rock, and how many bolts can be placed in what manner, I'll quit.
The community has done at least a half fast job of self control all these decades. Can't we make it a few more?
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Hey, you gotta admit, the vibes on this thread are turning much more positive, maybe even "harmonious" !! And.....STFU Festus !
Maybe if you make it to the top of Moosedog Tower with me next month you may earn a little credibility !!!
Cracko
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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There are two possibilities if the government gets involved in legislating bolting.
Either one has to get goverment approval before placing a bolt, or it is banned entirely.
Both of those options have been used by various land managers. Don't think it can't or won't happen in the valley, and don't think routes like this won't push the issue. Also, don't think a chopping fest wouldn't also lead to the same result.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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I've read every post. No mean feat at this point. I have a couple of questions....
Does "style" really matter? I mean, what distinguishes "climbing" from other "sports?" It would indeed be "sporting" to lay a giant ladder against the SFHD and then "climb" it, but is that "climbing?" If it is, then we're agreed, and anything goes... it's all good.
However, if that is not "climbing," then "style" DOES do something to distinguish climbing from other sports. The problem at that point is that we're faced with a grand continuum between naked free-solo ascents and something just this side of the big ladder.
On the taco people perpetually conflate style and ethics, treating their personal tastes as if those equate to rights and wrongs. THIS was the great mistake of the "Valley Christians" of Harding's era.
So, next question: why over 1000 posts on a thread that is basically devoted to people arguing about their personal tastes? Are we all that narcissistic?
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