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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 30, 2012 - 07:43am PT
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Shipoopi, sorry man, you´re right in that there is plenty of REAL climbing on the Compressor Route, I just think that there is too much needless bolting for such an iconic mountain. Still in Chilean Patagonia where the weather just broke after a 13 day good spell- back in Estados Unidos on Saturday.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 30, 2012 - 08:17am PT
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Shipoopi, if it makes you feel better I heard they are planning to apologize in 30 years.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 30, 2012 - 08:55am PT
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I just think that there is too much needless bolting for such an iconic mountain
and so what? I can say the same for the Nose and hunderd of other routes on iconic mountanis. is this enough to go there and chop everything?
let's say that chopping that bolts on THAT iconic mountain you can't go unnoticed and maybe the real point in this dirty affair is just becoming fam... ehm notorious
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 30, 2012 - 09:54am PT
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I met several people who climbed the Compressor route ...
None of them consider the Compressor route a "ferrata" and all of them considered it quite challenging also in relationship to the weather they found on Cerro Torre ...
I met people who told me that, when thex climbed Cerro Torre, the cracks were full of ice ...
So, I suspect there is more than mere ethical criticism when some climbers call the Compressor route a "ferrata" ...
I wonder if K&K could still climb the Compressor route almost boltless using climbing boots of 40 years ago,
no nuts,
no camelots,
no skyhooks,
no modern aidclimbing devices,
no previous knowledge of the route,
bad weather, etc ...
... and still call it "ferrata" ...
@blackspider
If it will make you feel better, many of Maestri's bolts will be replaced with shining, safe and bomberproof modern bolts ... so ... don't worry ...
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Jan 30, 2012 - 09:57am PT
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donini, thanks for the reply. it's personally frustrating to have failed on four expeditions to climb what people have been calling a via ferrata. but that's my problem. sounds like the weather has been too good to be true recently, hope you enjoyed it. i know how you feel about the bolts, and if you missed an earlier post of mine, i respect that opinion and wouldn't try and change it. the bottom line is that we both cherish cerro torre, so i feel there is more common ground than differential. ss
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:06am PT
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THIS ROUTE WAS CHOPPED BY ELITIST, FOR ELITIST, SO EVERYYBODY HAS TO RAISE THE BAR TO THEIR BITCHIN LEVEL, not because the route was so big an atrocity
So. It's a extraordinary spire. You shouldn't be able to go to the top unless you can, on your own. I can't. I am not part of that elite, that has paid their dues to make it to that level. I need to stay content that I can go look at it if I want and be damn glad for that!
Arne
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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If it will make you feel better, many of Maestri's bolts will be replaced with shining, safe and bomberproof modern bolts ... so ... don't worry ...
People keep talking about that, let's see someone actually do it.
By the sounds of it, the people who are most upset about this are non-climbers and older Italians. I'm not holding my breath on the action on this one matching up with the talk. But of course, anyone is free to drill some bolts, or to chop some.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:21am PT
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@blackspider,
that's your assumption, which is just wrong. Garibotti is not the only climber living in El Chalten. There are other climbers who live there and condamned the K&K action ...
David Lama - who is a climber who freed the route - said that K&K had no right to chop the route.
Many Italians, included myself, consider Maestri's style on the Compressor route, a badd style ... still you don't get that the issue is not about the bolts, but the fact that, in case, should not have been done by two foreigners against locals (who are also climbers), and other climbers.
For the rest I agree with you ... no big deal ... chop now ... bolts later ...
But I also have my assumptions.
My assumption is that who supports chopping Compressor route are either ignorant, arrogant or fanatic ... nothing less ...
@ionlyski
THIS ROUTE WAS CHOPPED BY ELITIST, FOR ELITIST, SO EVERYYBODY HAS TO RAISE THE BAR TO THEIR BITCHIN LEVEL, not because the route was so big an atrocity
So. It's a extraordinary spire. You shouldn't be able to go to the top unless you can, on your own. I can't. I am not part of that elite, that has paid their dues to make it to that level. I need to stay content that I can go look at it if I want and be damn glad for that!
Arne Does it mean that if someone freesolo a route, is entitle to remove all protections?
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Johnny K.
climber
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:27am PT
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This thread is still going with all this mumbo jumbo?
The strewn bolts never belonged up there to begin with and have only been an insult to the beautiful mountains.Anyone thinking different is a selfish egotistical fool with no regard or respect for nature,just like Maestri was when he forced his bolts onto the mountain,didnt even summit and claimed the route in his delusional disrespectful mind.
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The cad
climber
Does it matter, really?!?
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:28am PT
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By the sounds of it, the people who are most upset about this are non-climbers and older Italians Welcome among non-climbers, shipoopoi!
And, enzolino, how old are you?
Do you qualify as "older Italian"?
Are you a non-climber too?
LOL
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:33am PT
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Yes, the Compressor Route is a piece of history.
The question is, as climbers: Is it the kind of historical route we want to be regarded and remembered by the world as representative of our community?
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:33am PT
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Steve Schneider chopped bolts on jumar and lied about it for 30 years. For him to be getting all self-righteous over this is just absolutely hilarious.
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The cad
climber
Does it matter, really?!?
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:38am PT
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The question is, as climbers: Is it the kind of historical route we want to be regarded and remembered by the world as representative of our community? The answer is, as a climber: I couldn't care less of what the world thinks of our supposed representative routes.
Moreover, I guess the world couldn't care less of climbers and their stupid games.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:40am PT
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The strewn bolts never belonged up there to begin with and have only been an insult to the beautiful mountains.Anyone thinking different is a selfish egotistical fool with no regard or respect for nature,just like Maestri was when he forced his bolts onto the mountain,didnt even summit and claimed the route in his delusional disrespectful mind. One of my assumptions is correct.
Someone who ignores that a large percentage of routes has been opened forcing the rock (rivets, holes, bolts, etc) is just ignorant. The mountain doesn't give a damn if its surface is itched with some metals ...
Anyway, also Garibotti placed bolts on Cerro Torre ... at least one ...
And, enzolino, how old are you?
Do you qualify as "older Italian"?
Are you a non-climber too? How old am I?
The few hair left on my head are white ... ehm ... I don't remember my age ... but ... I guess people would say I'm old?
Am I a climber?
... mmm ...
Don't tell anybody ... I'm not a climber ... I'm paid by the Supertopo crew to keep this thread alive ...
Blackspider must be right ...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:50am PT
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Strangely, out of the blue, I got a call last night from one of the WoS choppers (he had a case stuck in his gun).
We talked about both choppings and, unlike Steve, he was unrepentant.
Ah well,....
I thought Greg Child calling the actual compressor "the crazy uncle in the attic of mountaineering" was brilliant.
We gotta hear from the guy who actually completed the Compressor Route,...
Jim???
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:51am PT
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Article 4 – Visiting Foreign Countries
maxim
When we are guests in foreign countries, we should always conduct ourselves politely and with restraint. We should show consideration to the
local people and their culture – they are our hosts. We should respect local climbing ethics and style and never drill holes or place bolts where there is a traditional ethic against it or where no locally established ethics exists. We will respect holy mountains and other sacred places and always look for ways to benefit and assist local economies and people. An understanding of foreign cultures is part of a complete climbing experience
Enzolino,
Thanks. This maxim provides a succinct justification for the removal of the Compressor's bolts.
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Johnny K.
climber
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:52am PT
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Piton Ron,Bridwell called Maestri a pussy for his actions and bolting.I think that sums up what Jim thinks. =D
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:56am PT
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Rolo's words bear repeating here:
"Some of the townspeople, largely non-climbers, believe they should be the ones deciding what happens up on the hills. They seem to forget that a self-regulating international community of ‘locals’ has been visiting these mountains year in year out since the 1930s. To me their reaction is not unlike the reaction of an ignorant football fan. When the Argentine National team plays I am often that person, shouting at the couch and players even if I know next to nothing about what they are attempting to do on the pitch, or the real difficulties they are facing. The difference is that I don’t expect anyone to take my football opinions seriously."
If there was a debate as to whether or not to bolt lines on the Buttermilks, would every soccer mom living in Bishop and Big Pine get to vote on it?
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:57am PT
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Enzolino,
Thanks. This maxim provides a succinct justification for the removal of the Compressor's bolts. Snorky,
the locals consider Maestri's bolts sacred ... it's thanks to the Compressor's route that the place has some business ...
Now, with just elite climbers, all the business will go bankrupt ...
Poor El Chanten ...
So, K&K, violated the sacre bolts ... this is why the police confiscated them ...
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:57am PT
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i may be ignorant, arrogant AND a fanatic actually. =) And my opinion on this counts for precisely diddly-squat. So since I'm batting a thousand so far......might as well take another swing or two...
Mountains and routes have always been about statements. Either to yourself or to the world. But as much weight as we give to our little mountain games, in the end, very little about what we do is important enough to warrant this much angst.
K&K's actions were, at the worst, undiplomatic. No one was harmed. The mountain has, inarguably, been returned to a more aesthetic ideal.
I can support that.
I dream of summits that are simply impossible. Peaks that repel every single attempt. Where no one has ever set foot. Mountains that will require absolutely everything from those who attempt it...and yet still turn them away. Cerro Torre is as near to that as any peak on the planet. In two years I hope to be lucky enough to toss my own hat into the ring and take a few shots at its walls.
How did Maestri's bolts go from abomination to national (or local) symbol of pride anyway? I don't understand the support. I admit I see some parallels to El Cap...but somehow I place the two in different categories. Cerro Torre is the alpine ideal...El Cap is a big wall playground.
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