Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 7, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
Should we discuss heat related deaths in Chicago?

You dumb mofos are discussing weather, not climate.

So glad I quit on this thread, the idiots are taking over.

It's like an echo chamber of stupidity.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 7, 2014 - 02:10pm PT
You dumbshits are talking about weather, not climate.

But, keep being stupid. It makes me, and I'm sure many others, laugh.
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 7, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
Serious people should recall that
Planetary weather is chaotic and always will be.

Although some think that Warmists are stoned crazy while still
struggling to practice carbon voodoo doll magic, sticking in pins and claiming that CO2 causes colder winters and pizza delivery guys to be late due to slippery roads.
Oh the humanity.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 7, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
Chicago, Yesterday, 1/6

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 7, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
Chiloe....That IS an interesting graph. It needs a "Z" axis, for volume, however.

Fortmental made a reasonable suggestion yesterday after I posted this cycle plot of Arctic sea ice extent and volume:


So I merged the volume, area and extent data to try this out. Unfortunately the results are kinda messy no matter how I scale the axes -- either the 3 sets of curves collide somewhere or I have to compress the vertical scale so we lose too much detail.

Still, it makes sense to see a volume cycle plot as well. Here's the result, showing volume decline in every month of the year:

Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 7, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
Thanks , Chiloe, for putting up with dumb people and providing facts

Not your words, obviously, but folks here seem to be especially stupid right now. It's cold out, global warming isn't happening. Idiots.

This polar vortex excursion is a single weather event directly affecting about 2 percent of the world.
Climate change is measured by evaluating continental to global trends in weather over decades – not events happening over a few days in a little region. For this reason, a fleeting cold wave (or snowstorm) over part of a continent should never be used as evidence for or against climate change.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2014/01/06/the-polar-vortex-in-no-way-disproves-climate-change/

So, if you're trying to cite cold as proof of evidence contrary to all the science backing up climate change, well, go f*#k yourself.

You're wrong, you know it, and yet, you still keep amusing us with stupid statements.

I appreciate your commitment to being proven wrong and ridiculed, and it is hilarious. Keep it up, please.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 7, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
Chief, I make a valid point.

And, oh yeah, what's your education level? Don't talk sh#t unless you can back it up, dude.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 7, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
Edit; what I just wrote was inappropriate. My apologies.

Peace out.

Double Edit; Chief, I beat you to the punch.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 7, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
What's with that little uptick in volume between 2011 and 2013, that's absent from Feb to May?

I think you're just seeing the fact that summer melt did not go as far in 2013 as it had in 2012. Until late spring/early summer (when there was cool and stormy weather at the crux of the insolation/melt season), 2013 volume was close to the track for 2012.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 7, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
A fine starting place for all things Arctic is the Arctic Sea Ice blog. At the top of this page they have links to these datasets and much more:
https://sites.google.com/site/arcticseaicegraphs/
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 7, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
Nifty joke, Ron. You're such a card.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 7, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
Fortmental, that graphic was inspired by NSIDC researcher Mark Serreze, who colorfully suggested that Arctic sea ice could be entering its "death spiral." Taking off from there, Jim Pettit made Serreze's metaphor into a graph.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 7, 2014 - 06:04pm PT
Upthread in response to yet another of Rick Sumner's fantasy pronouncements I cited a paper that Dick Haedrich and I wrote some years back, called "The Fall and Future of Newfoundland's Cod Fishery." Fisheries are kinda off topic here but we have discussed them now and then. For the bemusement of Ed and anyone else needing entertainment after the IQ hazards of today's repartee, here's the very simple model at the heart of that paper.
MODELING RECOVERY

Our model is based on the well-known Lotka–Volterra equation of growth (the logistic equation). We model the growth of the codfish population over time, based upon initial stock size, carrying capacity, and an inherent growth rate:

B[t] = B[t – 1] + B[t – 1] r(1 – B[t – 1] /K) – B[t – 1]F

where:
B[t] is the fishable biomass (metric tons) at year t, and B[t – 1] the previous year’s biomass;
r is the inherent growth rate;
K is asymptotic carrying capacity of the ecosystem; and
F is annual fishing mortality, expressed as a fraction of the biomass.

Management options can be represented through changes in the fishing mortality F and the length of time that the moratorium (i.e., period when F = 0) continues.

The number of people supported by future cod populations depends on the amount of biomass harvested each year, B[t]F, together with the average required income. If fisher folk earn an average of P dollars per kilogram of fish, and they require an average income of I dollars from fishing, then the number of full-time jobs (J) that can be supported in year t is:

J[t] = 1000B[t]FP/I

Fish prices (P) and incomes (I) can be varied as model parameters. An interactive program incorporating equations [1] and [2], written in the Stata programming language, performed the calculations for this paper.

At the time the Northern Cod fishery was closed in 1992, the biomass was estimated to be little more than 20,000 metric tons. It continued to decline thereafter; the estimate in 1995 was down to 13,000 tons (Amaratunga 1997:55). Survey catches at this time were so poor, however, with so many 0-samples, that these estimates appear unreliable. We have set our model’s initial stock size, B0, at a possibly optimistic value of 50,000 tons. Myers et al. (1997) estimated the inherent growth rate of cod populations from many areas across the entire North Atlantic. We adopt their value for cod on the NE Newfoundland/Labrador Shelf: an annual growth rate of approximately r = 0.185. Calculations of the cod biomass in 2J3KL for 1962, when the peak distant-water fishery was just beginning, suggest that the stock then comprised around 3,000,000 tons. We use this value for K, carrying capacity. In our model runs, we arbitrarily set the desired income level at $30,000 per person.

Figure 2 depicts 100-year trajectories for biomass, under four alternative policy scenarios:

A. The moratorium continues for three more years, followed by fishing at roughly pre-collapse levels ( F = 0.30). Projected biomass rises briefly during the moratorium, but then falls after the moratorium ends. Within a few decades it approaches zero.

B. Fishing resumes immediately at an F = 0.16 mortality rate, which has been stated as a sustainable goal (unfortunately, not achieved) of pre-collapse fisheries management. Projected biomass grows very slowly, reaching just 275,000 tons (9% of carrying capacity) after 100 years.

C. Fishing resumes immediately at a “precautionary” rate (F = 0.04), equal to 1/4 of the usual F = 0.16 mortality. Growth under this scenario starts slowly but then steepens, passing 1,500,000 tons (50% of environmental capacity) in just 32 years, and 2,352,000 tons (78%) after one century.

D. Fishing is prohibited (F = 0). Biomass then approaches the maximum set by environmental carrying capacity (i.e., returns to early-1960s levels) in about 35 years. Although unlikely as policy, this scenario highlights a stark reality. Even under the strongest possible conservation rules, codfish stocks cannot rebuild to their early-60s levels within the lifetimes of many of the people now fishing.

Figure 3 shows the number of full-time jobs that might be supported under each scenario. In the long run, precautionary management would provide far more jobs—or alternatively, provide higher incomes for any number of fishers. Table 1 gives examples, showing the precautionary strategy’s 4-to-1 advantage over F = 0.16, and better than 200-to-1 advantage over a moratorium/F = 0.30 strategy, after 40 years:
It seemed a bit bold at the time, calling our paper "Fall and Future." That was 14 years ago and you might wonder how it worked out.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 7, 2014 - 06:18pm PT

actually, the term Polar Vortex has been around for many many years

I remember reading of it in the 1970s

maybe the term is new to some people and that is why they make a big deal of it?

Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 7, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
actually, the term Polar Vortex has been around for many many years

Shows up a lot in planetary studies, and also paleoclimatology. Frinstance, many early papers on the Greenland ice core (GISP II) project, where they "discovered" abrupt climate change, focused on an index of polar circulation intensity which seemed to shift quickly between two quite different climate states.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jan 7, 2014 - 06:31pm PT
Thanks chiloe, looks interesting I'll check'er. I was actually there and met a whole town of good folk that could no longer jig for their livelihood. 2 little grocery stores on either end of the town was the only business happening.

It is definitely a different place. You ever climb there?

I was hanging in Devil's Bay and Francois for the month of Sept. in 95. We were climbing. Hella good granite all over the south coast. We climbed BlowMeDown or Jabo as the locals call it, nice quality with nice cracks that get wet almost every night! The route was 5.10 A3 all clean. It looked to me like it would go free with bolts. We also did some climbing above Francois.

Again, thanks!

Do you know if hurricanes are more frequent up there? We had to go back to town for 4-5 days and sit one out..
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 7, 2014 - 06:33pm PT

it's only winter in the Northern Hemisphere.

Just days into the New Year, Australia is setting heat records again. (2013 was the country's hottest year on record.)

Temperatures soared as high as 125 degrees Fahrenheit (51 degrees Celsius) last week, and severe fire warnings were issued for Queensland and Western Australia.

http://www.livescience.com/42353-winter-storms-and-global-warming.html
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 7, 2014 - 06:35pm PT
But what about that research ship trapped in the Antarctic ice at Christmas — the one encircled by pack ice blown in by a powerful cyclone?

Doesn't that disprove global warming, too?

Turns out, hotter air holds more moisture, which leads to more snowfall and more sea ice, scientists think. Changing storm conditions around the icy continent are also favoring more sea ice. But ice on the Antarctic continent is still shrinking, according to the most recent surveys.

http://www.livescience.com/42353-winter-storms-and-global-warming.html
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 7, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
It is definitely a different place. You ever climb there?

Climbed there only once, at Flat Rock, many years ago. That South Coast stuff looks wild, but I never got down that way. You have to approach by sea, don't you?


I've been fortunate to visit for nonclimbing reasons, over the years, and always jump at a chance to go back. Most recently about this time last year, I was invited to give a couple of talks at MUN. A real highlight was arriving in a full-on winter gale, then spending the evening with an old friend having fish & chips at a warm crowded pub.
Digits

Trad climber
Ca
Jan 7, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
From wikiHow on buying carbon offsets.

"Find a quality provider of carbon offsets. Because carbon offsets are fairly intangible, you need to take precautions to ensure that your purchase is having the intended impact."

"Buy the offset! Most offset providers sell through the Internet, so you’ll be able to buy with a credit card and get confirmation of your new clean-living, clean-driving status within minutes."

Fun stuff!

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