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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 13, 2019 - 05:17pm PT
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What would it take for you, personally, to come to the conclusion that unguided abiogenesis is impossible?
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You just dropped an atom bomb into this discussion. You're also coming from a position per abiogenesis that so far outstrips everyone else that your questions cannot be dissed as someone who would never ask such foolishness had he only gotten jiggy with, physics, biochem, engineering, chaos theory, emergence, randomness, information theory, processing speed, current algorithms, Hard AI, complexity theory, and Wilmer Fudd.
What it would take is to (likely) abandon the belief that physical processes, attributed to specific objects and forces, situated in a particular place at a particular time, did X, thereby "creating" Y. But ever so slowly, you see, which negates the statistical remoteness of this ever happening ("approaching zero," or "effectively zero" according to credible papers I have read on the subject).
The normal reply is, "But there's nothing to say it's impossible," or, "We just need to do some more data collection." This hardly seems like a strong place to start an investigation, but we humans are stubborn. It's just in this case, as with mind, the challenges are such that maintaining or pursuing other avenues of thought seems smart. The problem is that to do so, people want "proof" drawn from the physicalist paradigm, not understanding that the paradigm itself is likely the problem.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 13, 2019 - 05:29pm PT
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If you stir the beaker full of chemicals long enough there will be life is their mental speculation .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 13, 2019 - 09:00pm PT
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15 years ago, Opportunity landed on Mars...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://youtu.be/1Ll-VHYxWXU
"Don’t be sad it’s over, be proud it taught us so much. Congrats to all the men and women of @NASA on a @MarsRovers mission that beat all expectations, inspired a new generation of Americans, and demands we keep investing in science that pushes the boundaries of human knowledge." -President Barack Obama
Opportunity, 2004-2019
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 13, 2019 - 10:07pm PT
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But I trust Ed has another take on it...
which I've written at length in the "Mind" thread to no apparent effect as far as you are concerned.
You might look at the numerous discussions regarding the consequences of Bell's test. There are three possible "ways out" and locality is one of them, but there is also "realism" (counterfactual definiteness) and "non-switcherooism" that could be on the chopping block.
Bell doesn't say which one. When you asked me what Bell thought, I took the time to go through his writings and report back, but I'm sure it was way too much for you, no snappy factoids... no blazing metaphors...
You can search through this stuff, it's all on these threads. I'm not really interested in replying since I have done so so many times and it does not seem to interest you.
I've also written about pre-geometry, which I've been interested in quite some time (which means I've actually spent time working through some of the papers on the subject). A pre-geometric description of physical law does not contain any reference to either space or time. I'm quite comfortable with very different ideas about time, you're riding your causality hobby-horse so you don't notice.
Also, Einstein "smuggled" in causality on you in his statement about future, now and past. But you didn't notice.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 13, 2019 - 10:17pm PT
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The problem is that to do so, people want "proof" drawn from the physicalist paradigm, not understanding that the paradigm itself is likely the problem.
offer an alternative explanation
don't keep saying that abiogenesis, mind, etc are not possibly physically, you have only leveled criticism on the "current paradigm" and the "orthodox view point."
You have never offered anything else... and saying "well, it's complicated and I don't really have anything" is weaker than the actual science work that is ongoing, and producing understanding even if not solving this particular problem.
WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO OFFER? nothing so far, just criticism. Werner has at least referenced some work on Vedantic ideas.
You can say God did it all, but that doesn't offer much in the way of understanding or explanation.
You can construct a concept of God capable of doing it, and have faith, but it isn't going to get you the sort of understanding of life particularly useful to medicine, for instance.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Feb 14, 2019 - 08:03am PT
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HFCS: Tell me, Paul, how does a paper on "feminist glaciology" help science.
!??
A blatant indication of prejudice. Why would it matter what “helps science” or not? Why not say “helps society” or “helps the disadvantaged” or “helps to promote well-being” or “helps to create trust among people?” I understand this is the Religion Versus Science thread, but is not science a subcategory of the category “research” or “investigation?” The questions exposed here are larger than science.
Science is an epistemological approach to understanding, and in that, it is particular—with particular values, beliefs, and norms of behavior. If there are a people who “do” science, then their devotion to those principles of science constitutes a community. Dissing sociology in this regard is like dissing the ability or right of people to come together, be with one another, and work and play with one another *their way.*
If you want respect for your views and values and norms of behavior from others, then it might be helpful for fuller hearings for your positions if you give others some leeway for theirs rather than incessantly blasting them here. It's tiring.
Perhaps you are unaware that minorities would like an opportunity for their say on what and how things are.
Stay in your lane, dude.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 14, 2019 - 08:48am PT
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!??
I'd say you've lost the plot, but it's obvious you never had it in the first place.
Opining on something they know nothing about. It's what people do.
...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wieRZoJSVtw
Compare the style and substance of this conversation to the style and substance on this and the mind thread.
If we're being national about it, Brian Cox is Britain's equivalent of Brian Greene / Neil deGrasse Tyson.
re abiogenesis/biogenesis, geochem /biochem (t=56:30)
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 14, 2019 - 08:51am PT
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Opining on something they know nothing about. It's what people do.
You do that too, beaker boy
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 14, 2019 - 10:26am PT
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WB, did you graduate high school? Just curious.
If not, your highest grade was?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 14, 2019 - 10:44am PT
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Highest grade level second grade.
Barely made it past kindergarten .....
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Feb 14, 2019 - 12:36pm PT
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The first question to ask about any religion is
"who benefits financially (or materially)" Lol, surely not 99.999999999999% of people who genuinely try to follow Jesus. Exceptions being the shady Joel Osteen style mega church leaders.
My brother, who quit his $360,000 per year job, leaves this Saturday to take his family to Ethiopia for 5 years and teach surgery to Ethiopians at a missionary hospital that treats patients for free. He doesn't have any money to follow.
People like him are why society benefits from "religion" (I hate that word), not the televangelist types that get so much attention, or the people that think it's important to build giant temples for some reason.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 14, 2019 - 12:45pm PT
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The first question to ask about any religion is
See how he uses the words (any religion).
Shows how clueless and brainwashed this over biased fool Malemute dude
always is.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 15, 2019 - 12:08pm PT
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I'll try and answer Ed's request but I gotta go to Europe on Sunday and am swamped right now.
But let's go back to this:
What would it take for you, personally, to come to the conclusion that unguided abiogenesis is impossible?
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Notice the total silence on this one. That's telling.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 15, 2019 - 02:35pm PT
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What would it take for you, personally, to come to the conclusion that unguided abiogenesis is impossible?
how do you prove something is impossible?
if you had a physical definition of life
and the steps to getting there were physically impossible
then you might conclude that abiogenesis is impossible
SO
what is your definition of life?
what are the steps for getting there?
are they impossible?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 15, 2019 - 03:48pm PT
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Life is a process, not a substance or a state, though it HAS states ever shifting.
My sense of this is that you believe that biogenesis HAS to be true, and since there is no physical proof that it isn't allows you to hold onto the belief that "future data" prove it so. This is the stubborness of scientism, in my view. That is, when statistically speaking, leading experts insist that biogenesis is "effectively impossible" as it is presently imagined, I'm curious about what this actually means to you, or if you automatically search for ways to disqualify those experts as "misinterpreting the data."
Like mind, the question of what life is might be a process of elimination of what it is not.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 15, 2019 - 04:39pm PT
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Look at it this way, Dingus. The physicalists paradigm says that life, and mind, are just accidental byproducts of the laws of physics. Flip that around and what happens to physics? It's no longer has the favored-nation status of "explaining" reality. It never did to many of us who "didn't understand the numbers," while we always said looking at the numbers was not, in fact looking at mind - you only think or believe it is.
Biocentricism is just one small step toward expanding the paradigm in the hopes of logically and coherently negotiating the obvious road blocks and dead ends of physicalism. We can expect some blow back and stubborness as the bus passes people by, but this is really an inclusive process. It's just that many can't fathom including anything but measurements, though the observer keeps getting in the way and can't be horned out of the equation no how.
As Lanza said, "Switching perspective from physics to biology unlocks the cages in which Western science has unwittingly managed to confine itself." Many don't know they're in a cage (awaiting new data), but I'd also add that biology will also have to expand as the process unfolds and physicalism dies in the shallow end.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 15, 2019 - 06:26pm PT
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My sense of this is that you believe that biogenesis [sic] HAS to be true...
(I think we all agree that biogenesis is true, it's what Werner keeps spouting off about all the time).
what sense would it make if I said "you believe that abiogenesis HAS to be false..."
where would we be in the conversation?
You asked what it would take for me personally, and I told you. Now you disparage my reply.
What would it take for you, personally, to believe that abiogenesis is true?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Feb 16, 2019 - 07:17am PT
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HFCS: Opining on something they know nothing about. It's what people do.
"Something?" Please. What do you know about “feminist glaciology?” I don’t mean listening to Terri Gross or that greatly read and published intellectual, Joe Rogan. Dig into the literature, read. At least closely read Wiki, then bring out the issues, both sides, and clarify why one seems more relevant and valid than another rather than simply assertions. Your writing does not seem objective; maybe you’re not going for that.
(If you’re going for intellectual rather than dilettante, take some example from Ed’s writings.)
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 16, 2019 - 08:32am PT
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There are NO accidents ever.
They just look like that to us ......
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Feb 17, 2019 - 06:56am PT
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HFCS,
I mis-read your post. I'm a speed reader, and sometimes I read too fast, and I fill-in the blanks. I'm apologizing for what I wrote. You said something to the effect that, "sometimes people write about things they know nothing about." I missed the word "nothing."
I would normally say something about how mind works here, but it would seem like a diversion and excuse to me.
Again, my regrets.
Be well.
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