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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:14am PT
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I guess this is a good example of someone that hasn't read any of the literature going on for thousands of years.
Is skip a fan of scholasticism too?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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C'mon dirtbag spit it out.
You're envious and scared of your own shadow.
You can only see your own self in me.
I am nothing ......
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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Skip said:
"Does Science have within it the capability of "Disproving" God .. explaining love .. proving beauty....
Or are the subjects of faith, religion, art, love, beauty ...... best left to another pillar of human thinking?"
Actually, IME, "thinking" is invaluable in dealing with material "things," but evaluating cognition is of very limited value in the spiritual arena.
What's more, Ed said: "To first order, the existence of things beyond the physical is a concept, just as the physical is a concept."
This, to me, is a total non sequitur. A "thing" IS physical, and for something to "exist" it has to be material or at any rate, it has to have an atomic footprint, and be related to material processes in a fundamental way. There isn't any "thing" beyond the physical.
That of a spiritual nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The eternal never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The spiritual simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate spirituality to being, not thinking.
Of course none of this makes "sense," because "sense" is limited to "things" we can measure, contrast, and work over and adorn with our evolved minds and senses. That's why trying to investigate spirituality through standard thought processes will reveal nothing at all. The evolved brain can only grasp matter - that's what it does.
JL
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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To paraphrase,
That of a flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunnys to being, not thinking.
Absolute nonsense.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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You can't hold it in your hand, but it still has weight!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:30am PT
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JL -- "The evolved brain can only grasp matter - that's what it does."
Yes, the brain is the machine the soul works thru.
The working senses are superior to dull matter.
The mind is higher than the senses.
Intelligence is still higher than the mind.
And the soul is even higher than the intelligence.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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Maybe I'm a little slow on the uptake. I just read some of the posts around #1400. I am happy for the thoughts on science. Thank you.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Skip:
My point here is that in a discussion it serves no purpose to say some of the things you do.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 14, 2009 - 08:12am PT
"Jstan,
Your absence of intellectual honesty is stark.
But as I said, this is pretty much the standard "security blanket" pap from you as well as a very clear view into your inability to get "PAST" your Phd.
It would be very nice to see some of that Phd. in action on this subject rather than petty demagoguery. Which I can assure you will be thrown right back at you.
If there was ever proof that a Phd does not mean universal knowledge you are it. Your obvious inability to offer anything on this subject beyond repeating old and tired bigotry with a pseudo-intellectual twist (emphasis on pseudo) is telling.
You act like a child on this subject.
Grow up Jstan.
Skip"
End Quote
This is one of the slightly insulting posts.
I know you can do better. Enough about you.
Many times when I try to address a point, as I have posted before, I leave some of the logical steps to the reader. It would be insulting were I to leave nothing for the other to do. (Inferring something not actually stated is the exciting part of reading posts!)
When that does not seem to get across you either have to walk away/give up or press the logic to the final conundrum, as I said. When I sense people are reexamining things and there is hope of real movement by all of US, I'll push. Lynne is thinking.
If there is too little hope of accomplishing anything, I'll walk away.
Now I think many have given up on Gobee. I haven't, yet. As Lynne said, no one is perfect. That is something Gobee realizes and given that, he may just reevaluate what he means when he says he "knows."
I'll repeat something. Many of our problems come about because we are not careful enough in our use of language. This business about "knowing" seems an excellent example.
I don't really doubt there was a real person we have come to call Jesus. To have the effect he had he must have worked very hard to help people. I think in all this religious business
we entirely miss the truly inspiring story.
That a simple person just like you or me actually worked that hard and accomplished what he did. We have piled the bible with all of its 2000 years of politics and myth onto him so deeply we can't even see what was actually happening.
That what you or I do
can make a difference.
Small, but a difference.
You know that you are making a difference in your work with Jeanneau(?)
You are walking in some big footsteps.
Damn right you can do better!
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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From Largo:
"That of a spiritual nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The eternal never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The spiritual simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate spirituality to being, not thinking."
It took me a while to process. Maybe, from the masters came the monkeys. he he hii!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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Jstan
That's just how it comes across on the internet sometimes. Sorry about how you feel about skip and he feels about you.
As a consolation the next time we meet you can throw me into the mud for I am responsible in a way for resurrecting and steering this thread today for a while.
I was doing a Dr. F type assault from the other side of the fence. LOL
Not hard to do as we can see and ultimately does nothing for the truth must be seen and experienced by each individual.
Cheers, Werner
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:58am PT
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Weird Science
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 02:10am PT
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Werner:
I am sorry if I cause people heartburn but until we all get better this is one of the minor problems in life everyone faces. As I said before I think what Skip and his lovely wife are doing is wonderful. Nothing he says can change that. Nothing.
Skip has excellent intentions. Expressing those intentions is not a fight. He does not have to come out on top. He need only say what he is trying to do and why.
It is the "why" that causes people to take notice.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 20, 2009 - 08:42am PT
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 20, 2009 - 10:19am PT
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From Book of the Taco, chapter "Creationists Take Another..." wbraun 1386
"Oh they can't deny. It's impossible.
Can't be done. Every breath "prana" is his source.
They are rascals trying to shove their theories down everyone's throat."
Dude!?! Why is Mr. Braun spraying about the prana?!? Anyone out there with access to the corporate coffers taking note? I gotta bail to work (with my used watch and shirt, now if I had some used pants man, I could be the bomb).
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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny
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Oct 20, 2009 - 10:31am PT
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Evolution is very often not scientific. Those who espouse to this belief, as well as any other belief, are very often only trying to prove that belief. Face it, where evolution is in speculation there can be people in danger of losing their credibility! So often there is a choice that must be made between being objective and scientific and “wrong” or being dogmatic and going with the flow.
I would recommend that those who wish to espouse to the belief of evolution be careful that they are also truly learning to be objective. That they also start objectively dealing with material like The Hidden History of the Human Race and Forbidden Archeology written by Michael A. Cremo & Richard L. Thompson.
Evolution has become a “science” only to do with proving evolution! Research within evolutionism is in turmoil as many of those who have been making a living off it say that it can only be observed through their strict previously supposed hypothesis.
Many scientists today are arguing, in essence, that new information cannot be introduced to support science when, it may either contradict the theory of evolution, or rethink evolution through new information. That although evolution is not observable as part of anyone’s history it is filled with dogmatic facts.
However the fact is that new scientific arguments sustain theories as facts. When argument is necessary to be removed a theory evolves into a strategy for dogma controlled by a person or persons for some other end other then science, money or some political end could be at stake.
However when evolution can be revised, it could demonstrate that evolution is not as factual as it was previously, especially if it was faulty to begin with. And that, in my opinion is the problem with why new information, or what I would call true science, is often set aside.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 20, 2009 - 10:33am PT
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Kearny, Utah?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 20, 2009 - 10:37am PT
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Good point! until the world is made up only of decadent 'religionists' we are all doomed.
Got it!
Thanks!
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 10:44am PT
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"Evolution is very often not scientific. Those who espouse to this belief, as well as any other belief, are very often only trying to prove that belief. Face it, where evolution is in speculation there can be people in danger of losing their credibility! So often there is a choice that must be made between being objective and scientific and “wrong” or being dogmatic and going with the flow.
I would recommend that those who wish to espouse to the belief of evolution be careful that they are also truly learning to be objective. That they also start objectively dealing with material like The Hidden History of the Human Race and Forbidden Archeology written by Michael A. Cremo & Richard L. Thompson.
Evolution has become a “science” only to do with proving evolution! Research within evolutionism is in turmoil as many of those who have been making a living off it say that it can only be observed through their strict previously supposed hypothesis.
Many scientists today are arguing, in essence, that new information cannot be introduced to support science when, it may either contradict the theory of evolution, or rethink evolution through new information. That although evolution is not observable as part of anyone’s history it is filled with dogmatic facts.
However the fact is that new scientific arguments sustain theories as facts. When argument is necessary to be removed a theory evolves into a strategy for dogma controlled by a person or persons for some other end other then science, money or some political end could be at stake.
However when evolution can be revised, it could demonstrate that evolution is not as factual as it was previously, especially if it was faulty to begin with. And that, in my opinion is the problem with why new information, or what I would call true science, is often set aside."
Utter bunk.
You claim Michael Cremo is objective?
"Cremo is a member of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness and the Bhaktivedanta Institute. He has written several books and articles about Hindu spirituality under the name Drutakarma Dasa. He has also been a contributing editor to the magazine Back to Godhead and a bhakti yoga teacher. Cremo told Contemporary Authors that he decided to devote his life to Krishna in the early 1970s, after receiving a copy of the Bhagavad Gita at a Grateful Dead concert.[9] Over the years he professed adherence to traditional views with reference to both Western and Indian philosophical systems.[10] Michel Cremo (initiated name Drutakarma Dasa) was criticized by Communist sources of India due to close links with Hindu right wing nationalism along with David Frawley. He has met with Murli Manohar Joshi to discuss the Dwarka marine archaeology attempt to date "an alleged sunken ancient city" with evidence found off the Gujarat coast.[11] In the end of 1990s he headed an organized campaign from all sections of ISKCON to root out heretical views on disciplic succession called 'ritvkism', "once and for all and for good" [12] and authored a paper on the official ISKCON statement on capital punishment.[13] His work on Puranic Time and the Archaeological Record was published in the ISKCON Communications Journal.[14]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cremo
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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Evolution is not only scientific, but it is the basis of all biological sciences.
Read here in Chapter 14 of "The Origin of Species" http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter14.html
As in most science, we progress through demonstrating that predictions of our theory are incorrect (not that they are correct, instead we say they are "consistent" with observation and experiment). Here is a list fashioned from The Origin of Species of Darwin's predictions. All are consistent with observation and experimentation. This is the hallmark of a scientific theory, it can be tested.
evolution explains biology
evolution happens through natural selection
evolution by natural selection has a natural mechanism
sexual selection also drives evolution
the earth must be old, older than several hundred million years
fossil record gaps will be filled in
all life descends from a common ancestor
there must exist a pollinator for the Angraecum sesquipedale
modern humans arose in Africa
humans evolved from an ape-like ancestor
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