What is "Mind?"

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 10161 - 10180 of total 22307 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jul 28, 2016 - 03:24am PT
If only they knew what they were doing.



Don't pine. The machines that play Go know what they are doing.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 28, 2016 - 11:26am PT
MB, boy am I happy to see you here. I know that this is right up your alley.

Largo, for the zillionth time, said,

"Mind" is merely a term we apply to the fact that we are aware of existing in a manner beyond just stimulus and response, and the whole shebang often gets diverted into talk about neurons and the objects of existence.

Here you go again, implying, but never really saying, that mind is fairy dust and woo. You can't hold it in your hand. I disagree. Just as a liver keeps your blood clean from toxins, your brain is responsible for interpreting neuronal stimulus and response, and mind, likewise, can be easily reduced to what the brain does, among other things.

This has basis in physical evidence. Empirical physical evidence. If you REALLY think that mind isn't part of what brain does, then you should have the courage to kneel down and let me beat the living sh#t out of your forehead with a baseball bat.

We see this happen all of the time. Strokes are common, and easily seen on brain scans. The specific region of the brain that was damaged can not only be directly tied to objective functioning, awareness, and sentience, anatomy of the brain can be correlated directly to various functions. You must be living in the 19th century to state that the brain doesn't perform those functions.

Why are you so fixed in your position, Largo? Dude. I've never seen you learn anything from anything that anyone else has said. I've seen you try to act smart by using physicist friends as surrogate posters. You've been like an arrogant child.

By now, I should really dislike you, JL, but we have a close friend in common, and he vouches for you all the way as a good dude. Not to be disliked. A good person. He really likes you, and we go back over 30 years.

I've learned from this thread. I've said it many times. How subjective our senses and brain functions are. We aren't perfect analogies to silicon chips, that make no errors. We are woefully prone to belief and faith above empiricism and fact. We make all sorts of mistakes when taking in information. Again, I say that the scientific method is the best way to arrive at objective truth. If you can improve it, feel free. If it is better, science would certainly accommodate you.

You take the prize at that, right there alongside Werner and Joel Osteen. You are just a preacher. You have no unique insight into how the brain functions. You almost certainly do study your own brain's action through your meditation, but you don't just reject a physical explanation of mind, which is pretty clear at this point. You reject the physical brain at every turn, like it is an armpit. Why, I cannot understand.

Go ahead, Largo. Take the baseball bat experiment.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 28, 2016 - 11:34am PT
MH2 said "And why would it matter knowing what it is that has the perspective? What difference would it make? "

It gets back to looking inward; looking at the root of where and what perspective really is rather than taking it for granted. This process could provide insight into how firmly we believe our perspective and how it (perspective) is most likely always biased and consequently always limited.

This sounds obvious but when you watch people defending their perspectives to the death clearly they don't get that it is biased and limited.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jul 28, 2016 - 11:58am PT
Good to see MB1 here. Adds some gravitas to the thread and provides a professional's perspective to what JL and MikeL have been talking about these many years.


;>)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 28, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
Thank you John. And for Base....

Here you go again, implying, but never really saying, that mind is fairy dust and woo. You can't hold it in your hand. I disagree. Just as a liver keeps your blood clean from toxins, your brain is responsible for interpreting neuronal stimulus and response, and mind, likewise, can be easily reduced to what the brain does, among other things.

This is a totally "common sense" perspective that has often been summarized by such lines as, "Just as the gallbladder secretes bile, the brain secretes mind." Nobody can be "blamed" for thinking of mind in such "straightforward" terms.

However, there are many empirical reasons for thinking that mind is not "stuff" like bile. LOL

The first and most obvious reason is that the phenomenon that is mind is not something you can put into a beaker like bile. There are a whole spectrum of properties that mind apparently has that are not shared by (or reducible to) properties of the brain. Again, I'm not going to go into a full-blown, rigorous litany here. But suffice to say that there are very, very few true reductionists in the "brain secretes mind" sort of camp. It is actually not as "common sense" of a view as it initially appears.

So, physicalists about mind tend to fall more into the "property dualist" sort of camp, that espouses views like, "Mind is an emergent property," or, "Mental properties are emergent properties." I'd point you to a very small but beautifully-written book by John Searle called: Minds, Brains And Science (Harvard University Press, 1984).

You might respond, "Wow, 1984? SO much has happened in neuroscience since 1984! How can such a book even be remotely relevant today?"

Again, I am sympathetic to the thinking that would motivate such a response. However, you'll quickly find that Searle's arguments touch on precisely why developments in neuroscience, while impressive and useful in their own right, are deeply question-begging when it comes to establishing the physicalist paradigm.

Kant, for example, was a late eighteenth-century writer. But his arguments still carry the day on this subject (for those that grasp what he was really saying). So, I'll end this post with a quick summation of why everything you said above can be entirely true and yet not thwart the rejection of physicalism/reductionism about mind.

1) Kant argued that the body (brain) supplies the "data" of apperception. So, of course, turn off parts of the brain (or the whole thing) and you are definitely going to affect the "size" and content of the data stream!

2) That data stream, however, cannot in principle be consciousness. Contrary to Hume and those that have been taken by his line of thinking even today, consciousness is not just a "stream of data" or what is commonly called a "stream of consciousness." Such a "stream" cannot account for many defining features of consciousness, particularly what Kant called the "unity of apperception." There is a unity to my stream of data, yet, in principle, that unity cannot be an "emergent property" of the "stream" itself.

Everything I've said about (1) and (2) thus far is almost universally accepted among philosophers of mind, including "mixed-breeds" like the Churchlands at UCSD who straddle neuroscience and philosophy of mind. Those are not the really contentious points! The implications you derive from those points are where the "views" really diverge.

And it precisely at the divergences that I would repeat Jill Buroker's point: "Most of the 'problems' in contemporary philosophy would be seen as resolved or as dead-ends if most philosophers really understood Kant." (Again, sorry, Jill, for what I hope is not a bad paraphrase.)

What I mean by that idea, sans Jill, is that Kant rigorously proved that the "unity of apperception" is logically prior to "consciousness" as we generally talk about it. There is a "synthesizer" that is REALLY what "mind" is, and that "synthesizer" is utterly and in-principle inaccessible to us. We can know that it exists for each of us, strictly due to analyzing its products, and we can know that it must be logically prior to "consciousness" due to the nature of consciousness (thought of as the empirical "contents" that we study and correlate with readings from instruments). But the "stream of consciousness" itself is logically dependent upon and emerges from this "unity of apperception."

Now, of note is that Kant's view treats "consciousness" as an "emergent property," if you will. But Kant's view suffers from none of the category errors that reductionist "emergent" views have. And it's not that the "unity of apperception" does anything like "secrete" mind. Kant's view is that the "unity of apperception" is consciousness itself! It is just that without the empirical data provided by the body, the mind is "empty." And the "synthesizer" can only "work on" data supplied to it. So, you jack around with the data stream, and you thereby directly jack around the CONTENT of consciousness that the "unity of apperception" can in principle "fill in."

I'm sure you're seeing that this view is entirely consistent with the empirical data we have about "messing with" the brain. But you have to get deeper and more abstract than "brain talk" in order to tease out and really account for all of the features of consciousness that we all experience.

ALL we have access to is the empirical side of the equation. We can know that something non-empirical is "producing the movie" for us. And we can have an ever-increasing understanding of how the brain produces the empirical data that the "unity of apperception" assembles into the "movie."

But trying to say that the mind "is just" the brain in any robust sense is even more misguided than claiming that the movie "is just" the camera and film.



madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 28, 2016 - 01:12pm PT
Thank you, Moose. I'm a voracious reader of your posts.
WBraun

climber
Jul 28, 2016 - 01:20pm PT
But trying to say that the mind "is just" the brain in any robust sense is even more misguided than claiming that the movie "is just" the camera and film.

Very nice, Richard ...

Mind is subtle material though, and it can distinguish between material and spiritual.

Because the mind is subtle material BASE104 can't grab a hold of it physically like the brain when you do autopsy or pick it up
and throw it into the body bag when the brain separates out of the skull.

Thus he he makes the fatal mistake of the gross materialists trying to identify everything with only their material senses .......
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jul 28, 2016 - 02:03pm PT
Beauty of language magnified. Winter's Tale staging involved strictly governed ancient China vs. Bohemia (Haight meets Ringling Bros.) alternating sets. Next, politically rendered Timon of Athens then on to a motorcycle jacketed Hamlet.

Looks like they have it a bit more together than Santa Cruz... have to get up there.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jul 28, 2016 - 03:36pm PT
Real clarity. Thanks, Richard.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jul 28, 2016 - 04:44pm PT
Nice last post, Richard. Finally a viewpoint from a philosophical standpoint that can at least be discussed logically.
I have a couple of thoughts.

First, I don't think that anybody is saying that mind is the brain. The stance of the "science-types" is that mind is caused by our evolved brain.

Second, it seems to me that all animal behavior (including human) must fundamentally be "emergent", since we know that all life evolved from simple organisms with very simple behaviors. This is just plain logic (assuming that you believe in evolution). When a predator stalks prey, some sort of imaging system must be present in the predator's brain that allows it to anticipate what they prey will likely do. This imaging system must be an emergent property (it did not exist 3 billion years ago), and it amounts to an "experience" by the predator. To claim that somehow human consciousness is fundamentally different from this is my main beef with the "specialness" of human consciousness that is claimed by several on this thread.

As a student of philosophy, I wonder if you have ever read John Dewey, who I believe makes the best case for natural empiricism (the philosophy of science, more or less) that I have come across.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 28, 2016 - 04:57pm PT
Thus he he makes the fatal mistake of the gross materialists trying to identify everything with only their material senses

It's a very intuitively appealing perspective indeed. It works for us in most cases. It's just an oversimplification in this context.

Spot on, Werner!
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jul 28, 2016 - 05:16pm PT
Mark said.

That data stream, however, cannot in principle be consciousness. Contrary to Hume and those that have been taken by his line of thinking even today, consciousness is not just a "stream of data" or what is commonly called a "stream of consciousness." Such a "stream" cannot account for many defining features of consciousness, particularly what Kant called the "unity of apperception." There is a unity to my stream of data, yet, in principle, that unity cannot be an "emergent property" of the "stream" itself.

I'm going to go out of my way to revisit Kant. However, the whole "unity of apperception" can be explained with a physical model merely by incorporating memory into the model. The stream of data is acted upon by short- and long-term memories stored in the brain. What's the big deal? I don't find this line of reasoning particularly compelling.

Hey, and since we have some new blood in here, I'd like to ask your opinion on whether chimpanzees or lineages of the family homo that went extinct likely have or had this non-material consciousness that you speak of.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 28, 2016 - 05:22pm PT
First, I don't think that anybody is saying that mind is the brain. The stance of the "science-types" is that mind is caused by our evolved brain.

Yes, part of the problem in this subject is that it is extremely hard to rigorously pin down "what" we're even talking about. For example, you used causality to distinguish among views, which certainly makes sense. However, it turns out that causality fails to explicate for two major reasons:

1) What causality itself is is extremely contentious (and it has been at least since the "modern" era when people started trying to pin it down). Hume thought of it as "constant conjunction," while Kant recognized that it was at least "necessary connection." It certainly appears to be much more than even that. But what? Contemporary theories go into such things as

2) Causality (by any measure) doesn't do a good job of differentiating among views. For example, Kant's view is definitely a causal view; yet Kant ground mind in a "thing in itself," which materialists won't grant. Yet, as you rightly note, all materialist views (virtually by definition) are going to be some species of causal view.

So, causality, whatever that is, fails to explicate. "Caused" in what sense? And there you necessarily go beyond "cause" to "emergent," or property dualism or reductionism or something else (it's a long list).

Second, it seems to me that all animal behavior (including human) must fundamentally be "emergent", since we know that all life evolved from simple organisms with very simple behaviors. This is just plain logic (assuming that you believe in evolution).

Yes, but this is precisely where it's easy to slip into question-begging perspectives. The famous line is: "One man's modus ponens is another man's modus tollens." Your present direction would be the "modus ponens," while a non-naturalist or denier that evolutionary theory is a complete account can just as well use your argument as a modus tollens, in effect saying: "Yeah, but what we're looking at doesn't fall to a purely naturalistic explanation, which indicates that the naturalist account isn't adequate."

And at the juncture, it's very difficult for either "side" to avoid slipping into circularity!

When a predator stalks prey, some sort of imaging system must be present in the predator's brain that allows it to anticipate what they prey will likely do. This imaging system must be an emergent property (it did not exist 3 billion years ago), and it amounts to an "experience" by the predator.

Sure. But even granting that entire account, you're still talking about brain function and empirical experience. But that's not the "difficult" part of philosophy of mind. The jumping off point to the pressing problems in philosophy of mind is: What is the nature of experience itself?

When you presume an "ever evolving" notion of "experience," you are not really engaging with that more pressing question. Or, you are smuggling in empiricist presumptions in the "answer" to that question: "See, experience has 'always' been there is some sense. Consciousness is just a more 'advanced' version of that."

But that sort of thinking builds in both circularity and category errors. Frankly, we have no idea, not even the slightest, about what's going on in animal consciousness! We don't "get it" with human consciousness, and we have ourselves "from the inside" to talk to and use as data! It's a big leap to say anything at all about animal consciousness like it's some "subset" of our experiences. About things of this importance, it's critical to not make the loop of first anthropomorphizing and then using that skewed "data" to say things about ourselves!

To claim that somehow human consciousness is fundamentally different from this is my main beef with the "specialness" of human consciousness that is claimed by several on this thread.

See just above. I get why you'd have a "beef" with it. But there are solid philosophical reasons to be deeply suspicious of "mapping" human consciousness on the basis of "data" we have about animals. Again, we don't "get it" when we have data "from the inside." What are we really "getting" about animal experience?

As a student of philosophy, I wonder if you have ever read John Dewey, who I believe makes the best case for natural empiricism (the philosophy of science, more or less) that I have come across.

Indeed. Dewey was a class empiricist of Humean stripe. The irony, however, is that Dewey didn't take seriously how thoroughly Humean empiricism plunged naturalism into pure skepticism. Most of philosophy of science since Hume has been an attempt to yank science (and all of empiricism) out of the skeptical and anti-realist pit that Hume plunged it into! If you take Hume seriously as the genuine embodiment of empiricist philosophy, then you have to take his skepticism seriously. And then his "brute responses" "explanations" seem pretty weak.

Thoroughgoing empiricism's implications are precisely what Kant sought to save us from. To the extent that Kant salvaged empiricism, he also established the limitations of its possible inquiries. Namely, we live in an empirical reality. But that fact itself provides the limits of that inquiry, which is that we can't "pull back the curtain" to see the necessarily conditions of the "synthesizer" that produces the "movie" for us.

Just as information is not the writing on the page (nor is is "caused" by it), mind is not the brain (nor is it "caused" by it). The writing on the page "conveys" information, but the causal relation between writing and information is exactly reversed from what the empiricist needs it to be.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jul 28, 2016 - 05:42pm PT
I've mentioned John Dewey in a few posts here and there. I just thumbed through his Experience and Nature (1925), and found this one in about a minute.

These commonplaces prove that experience is of as well as in nature. It is not experience that is experienced but nature -- stones, plants, animals, diseases, health, temperature, electricity and so on. Things interacting in certain ways are experience; they are what is experienced. Linked in certain other ways with another natural object -- the human organism -- they are how things are experiences as well. Experience thus reaches down into nature; it has depth. It also has breadth and to an indefinitely elastic extent, it stretches. That stretch constitutes inference.

I'm a Dewien. I'll take my cues from the natural world. You might as well anchor on something that is productive and creative.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jul 28, 2016 - 06:04pm PT
I'm sorry, I have to call bullshit on this.

Thoroughgoing empiricism's implications are precisely what Kant sought to save us from. To the extent that Kant salvaged empiricism, he also established the limitations of its possible inquiries. Namely, we live in an empirical reality. But that fact itself provides the limits of that inquiry, which is that we can't "pull back the curtain" to see the necessarily conditions of the "synthesizer" that produces the "movie" for us.

Just as information is not the writing on the page (nor is is "caused" by it), mind is not the brain (nor is it "caused" by it). The writing on the page "conveys" information, but the causal relation between writing and information is exactly reversed from what the empiricist needs it to be.


I think that this is a semantics problem more than anything -- "What happens to my fist when I open my hand" -- that sort of nonsense. Yeah, so we know that there is some filter (filters more like it) through which we experience nature and perhaps we can't completely define an object in nature outside of experience. So what? Does that mean that every theory about that object that is grounded in experience is just as good as any other theory grounded (or not) in experience? The theory of a madman is equivalent to the theory of evolution? It's as if you philosopher-types have made your own playing field with your own rules that have little to do with our everyday experiences.

For me, I know the more I contemplate this subject the more I add to my edifice of knowledge allowing me to make novel inferences as Dewey pointed out in the last line of that paragraph.

Edit: I don't want to bump this again, but I wanted to continue about Kant. Kant did not know about the theory of evolution. That theory changed everything about our theory of mind -- at least it should have. Evolution is a way -- the only way that we know of -- that new emergent properties and behaviors of organisms as well as the organisms themselves can come into existence. Seems silly to have a point of view of something like "well we only believe in evolution because we believe in empiricism". It may be true, but it doesn't get us anywhere.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jul 28, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
I respect madbolter1. I am glad to see his posts.


Until we are told more specifically about the limits of empiricism we will probably go on studying how the brain works.


If brain and mind are the same, then mind can be put in a beaker.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 28, 2016 - 08:09pm PT
I'm gonna be slow to contribute more for some days. We came home last night to find that our dishwasher's inlet valve (according to the plumber) stuck open and flooded all over our laminate floor. About 1000 sq.ft. of damage.

Called the insurance company today, and they are obviously freaked out about potential mold, so the mitigators are out here right now tearing our ground floor apart. This is epic and unfolding as I write.

Yikes! New flooring everywhere over the next week. This is disruptive in the extreme.

Or, another way to look at it is: First world problems.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 28, 2016 - 09:37pm PT
What is the nature of experience itself?

sounds like a simple question, but you'd have to explain what "experience" is...

Namely, we live in an empirical reality. But that fact itself provides the limits of that inquiry, which is that we can't "pull back the curtain" to see the necessarily conditions of the "synthesizer" that produces the "movie" for us.

it is possible that there is no curtain to pull back and the "synthesizer" is something very different than what is happening.

however, Kant's account tries to explain something which may or may not relate to what "mind" is, only what we have learned it to be, which has its own inherent problems, that is, we may be trying to explain something that isn't what we think it is. And in the end, we can't do it.

good luck with your floor... it is a worry, the dishwasher and all those things that can go wrong hidden in bad places
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jul 29, 2016 - 04:00am PT
Thanks for what you've said so far, madbolter1. It gives a lot to think about.

It appears to me that this unity of apperception would exist for non-human minds. I don't see in the rough outline you provided where Kant's line of reasoning depends upon any particular anatomy or physiology. It seems that even an ameba could have unity of apperception even though its data stream would differ from ours.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jul 29, 2016 - 04:58am PT
In re-reading a couple of my lasts posts, I realize that I was a little more strident than I needed to be. Sorry for that. Good luck with that first world problem. Happened to us a month ago. Floors still aren't fixed.
Messages 10161 - 10180 of total 22307 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta