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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Jun 15, 2015 - 08:21am PT
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Just for discussion- you would need a big source for your water--The Great lakes basin is probably not big enough-it's just a basin holding five big tubs. So that leaves the Mississippi or the Columbia. The Columbia is pretty dang big as it goes into the ocean so that might be the source--AND it should make for some amusing comments coming from the those folks in the Pacific NW.
Probably the best thing is to give up on a lawn and go with rock gardens. I really don't pay too much attention to this as it doesn't affect me too much where I live. Sounds like a complex problem- and you mix in a city or two and a few million extra people. What could go wrong?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jun 15, 2015 - 10:31am PT
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I
hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
Jun 15, 2015 - 08:21am PT
The Columbia is pretty dang big as it goes into the ocean so that might be the source--AND it should make for some amusing comments coming from the those folks in the Pacific NW.
Haha yeah. The first salmon that flops onto a dry beach and the tap gets turned off.
They are trying to take out the dams on the Snake and Columbia, and when recertification comes up, some won't be able to economically comply with new fish standards.
We'll send you power, but you better ask the Saudis how their desalination plants work.
Or stop growing rice and hay in a desert.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 15, 2015 - 10:54am PT
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Lorenzo, what I can't tell from that chart is whether that is simply the total amount of water used for each crop, not paying any attention to the AMOUNT of each crop.
Obviously, if you have two crops that use the same amount of water, but one is produced at 10X the rate, it give the ILLUSION that the more heavily planted crop is using 10X the water. But it is not.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 15, 2015 - 11:14am PT
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The Great Lakes holds 1/5 of the entire worlds stored freshwater. Just sitting there doing nothing. It's ovious Calif has been the heart for progressive free thought, which has given way for the superior innovation's of the mind and body for the past 40 yrs. besides being the largest producer of foods in the northern hemisphere. The California dream is a model this nation should do everything in its power to uphold. We're already overly burdened and taxed with responsbilitys in providing help and assurance to so many states and countries.
Seems very legitament that we should pull from an abundant resource such as Lake Superior.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jun 15, 2015 - 11:15am PT
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Another graphic:
The article this graphic comes from suggests that one easy solution is to buy out all the alfalfa farmers, tell them to let their fields go fallow, at a cost of about 20 bucks per CA resident, saving just about the entire water shortfall for the state. Voila....
http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/11/california-water-you-doing/
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Jun 15, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
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Once you buy out the alfalfa growers you will need to buy out all of the cattle ranchers cause the cows are gonna starve. I guess we could grow beans instead of alfalfa to provide the protein we are going to be missing.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jun 15, 2015 - 01:07pm PT
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A
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 15, 2015 - 10:54am PT
Lorenzo, what I can't tell from that chart is whether that is simply the total amount of water used for each crop, not paying any attention to the AMOUNT of each crop.
Obviously, if you have two crops that use the same amount of water, but one is produced at 10X the rate, it give the ILLUSION that the more heavily planted crop is using 10X the water. But it is not.
The chart seem to me to show the total irrigation water used for each crop.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/workgroups/lcfssustain/hanson.pdf
The issue to me is how to best use a finite resource. Talking about piping Lake Superior or the Columbia seems on the level of towing icebergs from Antarctica. People in those regions will push back and are better equipped legally to do that than farmers in the Owens valley were 100 years ago. You need also consider that the ' no new taxes' mantra will make massive projects harder to fund.
Four crops : alfalfa, forage crops, cotton, and Rice consume somewhere between 13-15 million acre feet per year - roughly three times the volume of Mono lake or three times the volume LA uses a year, or three times California's Colorado river allotment. Alfalfa alone uses more water than LA or the Colorado allotment or Mono lake. It also loses more irrigation water to evaporation and transpiration than any other crop- by quite a bit.
These are low value crops that can be better grown in other regions of the country more economically if it were not for the federal water subsidies. Did you know that people in rain soaked Portland pay more for their water than LA? We get ours as runoff from Mount Hood.
As much as people say that using one gallon of irrigation water per almond is stupid, it at least pays better than those other crops.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 15, 2015 - 01:41pm PT
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Dingus, guess you don't understand the invisible power in a vacuum?
And easy to take the lazy mindful-less approach of jus letting those with money, aka. Big Corps. to man the literal flood gates?
Price inflation is a tool of the middle-class to segregate themselves from the poor.
It is the #1 factor that's led our economy into the drink.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jun 15, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
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Jun 15, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
Make them pay market rate and let the market decide what's the best fit.
DMT
The funny thing about that is that if water sold for market rate the farmers would make more money selling the water than raising those four crops.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 15, 2015 - 02:09pm PT
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Water is not merely a commodity!
It is the essence of life and is a right in regards to human consumption. Watering golf courses is a different story. The State has issued licenses and permits that's allowed the population to grow to today's level. And Yes, this has all been substantiated by the business market puppeted by big corps. And as long as there's growth and revenue and more taxes, the government will give it a yea nod.
The problem certainly spotlights the narrow mindedness of politicians unconcern for the future other than padding their pension.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 15, 2015 - 02:30pm PT
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Farmers are generally not permitted to sell their water rights to cities. If they started selling them it would devastate farming communities economies, further distorting the screwed up mess we have created by giving away water to one class, and charging another class ten times as much.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jun 15, 2015 - 03:26pm PT
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hey there say, DMT... as to your quote...
very well said:
Everything has repercussion. The idea that once local resources are depleted, that its acceptable to then pillage neighboring areas for water... is wrong headed from the inception.
tamper, tamper, tamper... bad, bad, bad... :(
natural solutions, work with nature...
no lawns, etc... work with the land...
my mom was not born in calif, and came from ohio area...
she learned fast--yes, it IS lovely for gardens and flowers, but:
during the first few summers, she knew:
this was a place to take GREAT care how water IS used...
now, through the years, her yard, which has always been TO the 'perfectionist' of 'trackhomes agenda'--THE WORST yard in the neighborhood...
:O
she is wise... now her yard, is WHAT folks need to learn from...
barely needs water at all... the few roses that she has gotten as gifts, well, they just 'do with whatever the rains' give... or a small drink for simple emergencies...
it is basically all non-water-needs... she sure is a good example to us kids, though, me, i DO NOT live there now...
i learned--as best as we can learn-and-try, if we work with nature, it will 'be as freindly' as it is able: meaning, the storms of life, might 'bite a bite' but even those, there is a reason for...
hopes and prayers for calif, though, as so many loved ones and 'humans that have their loved one' will need to get through this...
sadly, human-nature, want to ignore--mainly, i think, as, it is easier than the effort to work at changes...
but, ignoring, or, pretending things don't affect bad choices, causes
far worse damage, later... as we ALL see, in many areas of life, not just the water issues, in calif... :(
:(
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jun 15, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
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hey there say, malemute... this is good to remember, as well...
thanks for sharing:
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
H. L. Mencken
and, for every complex problem, too, OCCASIONALLY there is an ANSWER that is right under 'ones nose' (as the saying goes) but:
if it does not MATCH a 'pre-conceived idea' it is ignored...
oh my, sometimes human are more complex, than the complex problems, :O
and thus, if THEY made the problems, whewwww--it sure can be a mess to sort it out and fix it... :(
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jun 15, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
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Jun 15, 2015 - 02:30pm PT
Farmers are generally not permitted to sell their water rights to cities. If they started selling them it would devastate farming communities economies, further distorting the screwed up mess we have created by giving away water to one class, and charging another class ten times as much.
Farmers are allowed to sell their water rights and are making fortunes off it RIGHT NOW!
http://modernfarmer.com/2015/03/california-farmers-are-selling-water-to-the-state-instead-of-growing-crops/
California's drought is so bad that farmers in Northern California are finding that their crops aren't their most valuable asset anymore—it's their water rights. So they're selling their water back to the state at crazy-high prices.
Keep in mind that this water is subsidized by the federal government and taxpayers across the county.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 15, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
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I can't remember, but how much of the alfalfa crop gets shipped out of the U.S. across the Pacific Ocean?
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jun 15, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
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In regard to selling water rights - it's often not allowed.
Not sure what the legality of NoCal senior rights to sell depends on,
but when San Diego bought (for a limited term) rights to 100-200K acre feet of Imperial's water from the Colorado, it was allowed because it was termed "new water." Much of it comes from lining the All-American canal, the Coachella canal and distribution canals, so it wasn't water that farmers were actually using. It also is supposed to come from "farm water savings techniques," which is more dubious.
The Coachella Valley (north of the Sea) Water District had to be appeased since they are supposed to have secondary rights to that water. IID agreed to give them water also.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/02/140218-salton-sea-imperial-valley-qsa-water-conservation/
http://archive.desertsun.com/interactive/article/20130908/NEWS07/309080001/Desert-water-supply-aquifer-pumping-analysis
just some of the docs in this massive agreement http://www.sdcwa.org/quantification-settlement-agreement
There is still a big pending lawsuit because to get the deal approved, the state agreed to "fix" the Salton Sea. However a full fix is impossible, since the Salton Sea is a temporary and accidental phenomenon, gradually shinking and becoming more concentrated with salt and agricultural waste runoff. A partial fix to keep some of it cleaner for longer might be possible.
also, water from the new Desal Plant in San Diego will be about $2000 per AF, which is 100 times the cost of water in the Imperial ($20 per AF, delivered price). One reason for higher cost of desal in California compared to places like Israel is the strict rules on ocean water intake and even on the outlet return.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jun 15, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
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The water sales may or may not be allowed, but farmers are selling it.
The Owens River water was supposed to originally go only to the city of LA. The developers ( who spearheaded the water grab) stole the excess for the San Fernando valley. None of it was supposed to go there, but LA didn't want the Owens valley folks to think they had rights left, so they let the developers steal it.vthe idea was they could turn off the tap later.
The real story with Colorado water is that the State allocates more water than exists ( ask Arizona)
All the smoke and mirrors won't hide that the 'new water' isn't new at all, and doesn't even come up to the percentage levels set in the Colorado River Compact. If they wanted new water they would blow up Glenn Canyon dam and release 830,000 acre feet of water lost to evaporation off Lake Powell each year. That's actually"old" water that existed before the dam went in and is part of the water figured in the original Colorado River Compact.
That's why the river dries up before it reaches the sea. Jaguars used to live in the delta jungle. Conquistadors wrote about the danger.
The Salton sea is hopeless. It will be mostly gone by 2026 and completely gone in 50 years. Even with the current influx of 1.2 million acre feet per year it doesn't replace what is lost to evaporation. The waste in it is so concentrated that there are huge bird die offs every year. The only reasonably healthy population is Pelicans, a salt water species. They feed on polluted tilapia, the only fish species that isn't near extinction and isn't native.
The only reason to spend money on it is to appease developers who still want to snooker people who might want to buy and appease the fools who already bought.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jun 15, 2015 - 10:13pm PT
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I'm not sure what unsubsidized rates or market rates means in terms of farming. Irrigation water from any source in California is heavily subsidized by the federal government infrastructure in the form of the dams, canals, and basically free land to pump the water to. Without the water it's desert and worthless. There is no possible way to have the users pay for what it cost and economically farm.
And at the current rates even the irrigated land will be too salty to grow crops on and what's left will be too polluted with chemicals to be reclaimed. If you can believe it, one solution for the Salton Sea pollution is to pump the water to the Laguna Salada in Mexico, where "new" polluted water flows in the "new" canal/river and we try to tell the Mexicans its part of their allotment.
We will have done in 150 years what it took the kingdom of Uruk 3300 years to do and it will again be open desert. You have to think of irrigated land as an expendable commodity.
That was over 2 1/2 millennia ago and Uruk is still desert, though smack between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.
Gilgamesh is rolling in his grave.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 16, 2015 - 07:15am PT
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Interesting stat....there was more precipitation in May of this year in the contiguous 48 states than in any month since records started being kept.
Many areas have been relieved of moderate to severe drought.....California being the exception.
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