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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2016 - 11:15pm PT
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Why would you ever think you've been someplace by looking at a map?
different question, perhaps you misunderstood my question, which did not imply one does think they'd been their, but what is it you do think when you look at the map, especially of a place you had never been?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 22, 2016 - 08:50am PT
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different question, perhaps you misunderstood my question, which did not imply one does think they'd been their, but what is it you do think when you look at the map, especially of a place you had never been?
A map is a form of data incomplete in its relationship to experience. The better question is what is the difference between the map and the actual place? Remember: This is not a pipe.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 22, 2016 - 09:27am PT
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The stumbling block in the scientific community seems to be this stubborn certainty that data is experience.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 22, 2016 - 09:40am PT
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Sorry Paul, I'm not in the MikL and Largo camp. Experience matters. In surgery. In piloting aircraft. In nature inquiry and description, too. How much experience you've had in science including science labs matters if you're going to put yourself out there and make decisions and judgments on your own without deferring to experts in the subject matter. You say you're science friendly but you seem very detached from (not grounded in) the (modern) science enterprise.
Your CV?
In physics?
In chemistry?
In biology?
In Engineering? (Control? Bio?)
How many semesters? How many years?
Notwithstanding MikeL's past commentary (perhaps yours as well?) this experience matters. Banal fact, yes, but much ignored here.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 22, 2016 - 09:44am PT
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What's your CV in science, dmt?
I'll post mine if you post yours.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 22, 2016 - 09:48am PT
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Your CV?
Ha! The argument is not the CV.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 22, 2016 - 09:54am PT
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Ha! The argument is not the CV.
Apparently not on this thread.
C'mon, one simple truthful answer. Forget CV.
How much biology or physics or engineering do you have
under your belt. It's a pertinent question.
Roughly is all. Roughly is all I'm asking.
This experience shames (oops, shapes) minds, it shapes thinking.
-Most esp in regards to (validly and accurately) judging how the world works and how life works.
Without grounding yourself in science (edu, knowledge) how do you distinguish
yourself from the Jodys and Kardashians of this world?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2016 - 11:08am PT
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why would you ever look at a map before going someplace?
Orientation. Note how we study topos before venturing onto the climb. Information per the climb, especially a sketchy one, is vital. But few of us will confuse the marks on the page for the climb itself. Mind is required to not only fashion the map, but to decipher it as well, then to negotiate the climb.
And Dingus, even a perfect map of Yosemite is not made out of Yosemite itself, but ink, NOT glacier polished granite, soil, wood, water, etc. There really is a difference you know.
map
noun: map; plural noun: maps
1.
a diagrammatic representation of an area of land or sea showing physical features, cities, roads, etc.
"a street map"
synonyms: plan, chart, cartogram, survey, plat, plot
Not the word "representation."
That is, if we have three oranges, and the number three (a numerical representation of the orange external objects), it would be unlikely that we could mix the number "three" with vodka and have a proper beverage.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 22, 2016 - 11:44am PT
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How much biology or physics or engineering do you have
under your belt. It's a pertinent question.
Really? And as the house critic of religion/theology how many classes in theology have you had? Show your degrees in religious studies.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 22, 2016 - 11:49am PT
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It's about time.
I've had a lot of self-study in theology. Better: theologies. Spanning 10-plus years. Without google I could still name you ten branches of theology (Christian theology) in which I've invested my time. Which is more than many a Christian can do.
Show your degrees in religious studies.
No degrees in religious studies. No degrees in astrology either.
Am I not qualified to critique astrology either?
Now back to my question: you?
Ps. If you'd like to ask me questions about C theology, I'd love to hear them. (Esp insofar as they concern truth claims about how the world works or how God Jesus works or how exorcism works.)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jul 22, 2016 - 01:10pm PT
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even a perfect map of Yosemite is not made out of Yosemite itself
Can you show me anything which is not made out of itself?
The inanity of your metaphysics is clear.
On the good side, you have brought yourself to the question of how various aspects of Yosemite are represented in your mind.
As ink is to paper so are your experiences to your brain. Glacier polished granite is written in your brain cells.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jul 22, 2016 - 01:12pm PT
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HFCS: Notwithstanding MikeL's past commentary . . . .
What did I do now?
Dingus Milktoast: The perfect map IS the terrain.
You’ve changed the common meaning of a map.
CVs, bona fides, word of mouth, and references are means by which to judge competence when one cannot judge what people say or their work. They are superficial surrogates for direct experience, knowledge, and understanding.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jul 22, 2016 - 01:15pm PT
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MH2: Can you show me anything which is not made out of itself? The inanity of your metaphysics is clear.
This seems a form of tautology, which is a bit inane. Fire is made of fire? A house is made of a house? An atom is made of an atom. Insincerity is made of insincerity?
Help.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jul 22, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
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MH2: Can you show me anything which is not made out of itself?
The only way this makes sense to me (an empty sense) is if any “thing” were not a thing at all. If a “thing” were simply a non-thing, then it would be made of itself.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 22, 2016 - 02:13pm PT
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The better question is what is the difference between the map and the actual place? Remember: This is not a pipe.
The painting This is not a pipe was created for reasons quite different from most maps. The painting can be (erroneously) dismissed as trivial, it is a painting, of course, not a pipe. I see the dismissal of maps to be equally erroneous and a somewhat desperate ploy to rob them of their authority.
Maps contain information in a representational form providing the experience of those who created the map to be passed along to those who would read the map.
The same is true for a topo of a climb.
No one who reads the map confuses the representation with the real thing, however, that is not to say that the map's in ability to convey the "actual experience" in anyway limits its usefulness. It is the fact that a maps conveys particular aspects of the experience that makes them useful.
The use of the map may have a huge effect on what experience someone might have... it's a lesson we all know too well from looking at topos. Kelsey's topo of the Pingora Northeast Face route is horrible... and if it weren't for the traffic I'm sure many more people would get lost off route. Having your mindset fixed on interpreting Joe's "representation" makes for an interesting day high up the peak and off-route. Interesting because there's a lot of fixed gear up there off route... and some very nice climbing...
The topo is supposed to represent the route, not just "orient" the climber (who probably won't be helped if they can't determine where "northeast" is) It is a representation of not just the location, but of the difficulties, types of climbing, the location and number of belays, and all that.
Reading the topo, after having read so many topos before, and knowing the author of the topos, and perhaps a bit more about the experiences of others (both on the route and reading the topo) are all a part of "the map."
One can claim otherwise, but to do so certainly makes the meaning of "map" so trivial as to be unrecognizable from the thing we use.
Maps are a representation of experience, and an expression of experience, intended to provide information to others who might venture there...
...the natural generalization of a geographic map to other types of maps is relatively elementary.
“In thy face I see the map of honour, truth and loyalty.”
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jul 22, 2016 - 03:41pm PT
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I too am a map-lover. One of my all-time favorites. The Tectonic Map of North America. I got a big one on my wall in the basement.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jul 22, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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Dingus Milktoast: Are you sure?
You’re asking ME that? You’re hilarious.
I’m the guy who doubts everything.
(BTW, what do you mean by “perfect?” You know, in my world, there is only one fact. It’s the whole thing . . . like everything. Maps are included in that. So are territories. Everything else, . . . nada.)
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2016 - 05:20pm PT
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Maps are a representation of experience, and an expression of experience, intended to provide information to others who might venture there...
---
Ed, I hear you on this one but I see things a little differently.
A map, at least a map in the form of a topo map, contains information/data. When a quantitative map is used to "explain" an external physical object - such as a map of the Crab Nebula - there is nothing more than the physical aspects of the nebula ("the terrain"). So the map basically refers to all that is involved, providing the map is comprehensive. With a topo map, the lines and ratings and dihedrals marked as such do not represent 5.10 lybacking itself, rather they indicate the type of experience I am liable to encounter. But I can know that 5.10 experience, not by virtue of the marks on the topo, rather from reference to my own experience with 5.10 lybacks. This has to be so because there is more indicated on the topo than the merely physical characteristics of the route, and a suggestion per the rating of difficulty.
So for my money, the top INDICATES what kind of experience (5.10) I might find, and a quantification of that experience, but it does not represent lybacking itself.
A movie can also be considered a map of sorts and it could be said that it represents experience, but show a movie to a Turing machine, without sound, and see what it says.
Point being a referent to experience can only be understood by another entity WITH experience.
And MH2 asked: Can you show me anything that is not made out of itself.
Materialists often claim that mind is not made out of mind at all, but is made from firing neurons. Some go so far as to say there is no mind, ONLY what mind is made out of. But of course any riffing along those lines tell us little to nothing per what mind IS, but possibly a lot about our brains.
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 22, 2016 - 08:27pm PT
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ha, but maps can help us untangle that is out there... and provide the best start for formulating just what our experience might be...
http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/cosmic_classroom/multiwavelength_astronomy/multiwavelength_museum/m1.html
The interesting thing about an "experience" is that it requires a lot of overhead to have...
the NYTimes article I linked last week describing someone's transient global amnesia was interesting in this context.
The person had an experience, but because he has no memory of it, he feels as if he had no experience...
...if you had no memory, you would have no experience.
What is the role that memory plays then? And given the the fallibility of memory, what role does that play on our experience?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 22, 2016 - 09:47pm PT
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Every living entity has memory.
Memory from previous life has been mostly checked by material nature.
This why the gross materialist remain perpetually in illusion.
But every living entities true spiritual memory remains eternally unchecked although covered by the gross and subtle material energies.
Spiritual meditation uncovers the living entities original true eternal unbound nature .......
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