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feynman
Trad climber
chossberta
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Dec 14, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
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Fritz my intent was to point out that polarization, no matter how well intentioned has a pretty negative end game.
Personally, I think people are responsible for the environment they create, not just the occasional dramatic decision. Part of this perspective has emerged trying to rationalize why many partners kayaking and climbing have gotten injured while I haven't, despite being labelled as reckless for various alone trips.
Some people just hope we don't devolve into another civil war. The data suggests the country is at divided as pre-civil war times and the large group and quasi-religious dynamics on both sides paint a very bleak picture.
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Norton
Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
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Dec 14, 2014 - 04:27pm PT
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The data suggests the country is at divided as pre-civil war times and the large group and quasi-religious dynamics on both sides paint a very bleak picture.
interesting comment
but a question
just what is the very bleak quasi-religious dynamic in play from the political left?
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feynman
Trad climber
chossberta
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Dec 14, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
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It's in play from both sides. What's happening is that political groupings since the early 90's have purified memberships to an extraordinary degree. Political group now have a similar function to religions: the group, to a very large and measurable degree, sets the intention of belief. What we see is groups purging out disbelievers. Any dissent is equated with treason. No individual judgment is allowed
This mirrors the old Catholic-Protestant hate wars. America got around this with the sudden emergence of "individual judgement" during the first religious awakening in the 1730's. That set the stage for american pluralism and the move away from oppressive majority rule.
Demonizing the other side is a recipe for enabling humans naturally evolved genocidal tendencies toward out-groups.
(quasi-religion is something that mimics religious group dynamics but may lack something like a well-developed embodied or disembodied god character. Amway from the 80's is one of the classic examples: others include animal liberation front, neo-nazi's etc.)
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crankster
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
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Bs, both sides. There's a right and a wrong. Militia creeps who post about expelling Muslims, "illegals" et al deserve the vitriol they get. And their enablers are almost as bad.
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feynman
Trad climber
chossberta
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Dec 14, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
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Crankster, that seems to be very similar to the attitudes expressed from opposing camps on centuries of ideological wars. I certainly don't advocate the overly-convenient escape of post-modernism (all ethics are relative so gradations are pointless).
I'd just say that failing to understand where the other side comes from correlates strongly with the groundwork for complete polarization which typically ends with full domination by one side or the other.
What's historically gotten around this is enabling individual judgments, then enabling the expression of individual judgments, then denigrating those who express rash judgments. The latter tend to occur when people start to question whether those on the other side are really so different from themselves.
It would seem like the commonality of climbing has the potential to enable people to see that those on the opposing political camp aren't necessarily bad guys. Bad people tend to be randomly distributed throughout populations and tend to be enabled by structure (say constructs emerging from a highly polarized environment....)
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 16, 2014 - 05:02am PT
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finally! libs find a muslim they can openly hate (by showing their tolerance):
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/15/campus-turns-on-muslim-conservative-who-penned-pc-satire/?intcmp=latestnews
stoning women for adultery, mutilating girls' genitals, using girls as sex slaves, beheading and crucifying infidels, burying women and children alive, blowing up innocent people in marketplaces, murdering 3000 people just going to work?
all opportunities for libs to show their tolerance
mock political correctness?
a cause for moral outrage!!!
winston smith is dead
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 16, 2014 - 05:34am PT
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Bookworm, you need a new signature. If you ever read 1984 you'd applaud killing Winston Smith.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Dec 16, 2014 - 11:35am PT
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All there is to say;
Let's hear it for Jeb!
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crankster
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
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DMT, Frank Zappa's dead so he can't run...who else ya got?
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Dec 16, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
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Would that asteroid be independent?
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crankster
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2014 - 01:45pm PT
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Ha!
I'm too worried about the Ebola crisis...
Republicans lied about Ebola because they were using panic and fear to create mistrust of the government in order to win an election. Once Republicans won control of the Senate, Ebola stopped being a pressing issue. Ebola was such a non-issue that House Republicans took the country to the brink of another government shutdown that would have delayed more funding for combating Ebola last week.
The cable news networks tried to use Ebola to increase rating. Republicans used Ebola to win an election. Lost in all of the needless hysteria was the fact that the American people never had anything to fear about Ebola.
The Ebola panic demonstrated that fear based politics didn’t die with the Bush administration. Fear remains the Republican weapon of choice, and the corporate media are happy to go along for the ride if it means increased ratings and profits.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/dec/15/2014-lie-year-exaggerations-about-ebola/
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 16, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
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Believe it or not, I would vote for Hillary over some of the possible Republican candidates. While she brings with her all the odious Clinton apparatus, and has an unfortunate tendency to say dumb things at times, I think she's diligent, intelligent, and, like Bill, cares more about this country than about mere partisanship or ideology.
While I hope the Republicans nominate someone I can vote for, I cannot dismiss Hillary as a candidate I could support.
John
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 16, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
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"While I hope the Republicans nominate someone I can vote for, I cannot dismiss Hillary as a candidate I could support."
John, next time I'm in Fresno, I'm buying you the libation of your choice.
Your open-mindedness, and objectivity while maintaining an opinion, are admirable.
Soooo...how does Hillary compare to the current GOP frontrunner/likelys...Romney or Jeb?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Dec 16, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
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I totally agree,Apogee.
I vote for POLICY that helps the economy,my work depends on that.
Just being fiscally conservative,yet I am a Progressive Liberal.Fiscally Proven at this time,like it or not.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
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Romney is somewhat right of center, but he would have to cave to the crazy right wing on nearly every issue. So would Bush. For that reason, all of those guys are toxic.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
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The problem with Republicans is they have to run so far to the right during the primary to appeal to the rightwing base voters. Then they try to walk back towards the center in the general election and they sound disingenuous.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
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Their base would likely be rewarded with another far right Supreme Court pick.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 16, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
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crankster & dirt nail the situation nicely, which would seem to make it pretty much hopeless for the GOP.
What GOP candidate will possibly be able to sidestep the Base? If one came forward who spoke truth like Warren, it would be a whooollee new race.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Dec 16, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
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Or even Bernie..
He is well liked over here.
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